heat and Li batteries.

[pianotuna]

Hi Folks,

I hope this is of use.

https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2023-07-13/how-a-heat-wave-will-hurt-your-ev-battery

It may behoove folks in such hot areas to provide cooling for their battery bank--either by having it in the living quarters (which I'm personally loath to do), or by some other method of cooling.

[3_tons]

PT says, “ For the record I do recommend LiFePO4 batteries when the climate allows it.
In future, please go and twist some one else's words. BKTDA”

FWIW, I opted to delete my response in the broader interest of Group cohesiveness 🙂

3 tons

[Reisender]

StirCrazy wrote:

Reisender wrote:

StirCrazy wrote:

Reisender wrote:

StirCrazy wrote:

markchengr wrote:
Lithium iron phosphate batteries are lithium ion batteries. Same thing. The iron and phosphate are in the form of ions.

yes, but it's the chemical composition that controls the properties. LFP batteries have a wider range than what is used in cars.

it was 46C here yesterday and my LFP batter in the camper didn't spontaneously combust.

Steve

Hi Steve. Roughly half of the batteries used in electric cars now are LFP. Just over half of Teslas sold use LFP batteries and that number is increasing. Ever changing tech of course.

it is far far less than 1/2, I would hazard to guess in the less than 5% range of vehicles sold if you're in north America. tesla just started using LFP in a limited trial last couple years in China and now all Chinese sold tesla's are LFP, and only on the standard range. Ford VW and a couple others are starting to dabble with them

here is a list of care running LFP and they are only available in certain countries in this set up

Tesla Model S
Volkswagen e-Golf
Ford Fusion
Nissan Leaf
Porsche Panamera
BMW 740iL

so the tesla is the standard range model only sold in China.

The rest are not on anyone's list that is seriously looking at electric cars for anything other than going to the grocery store as the range sucks. There is a trade off in using LFP for cars, the negative being less energy density than the others, meaning the same ah of storage takes up more space and weighs more. the benefits being longer life, and a safer chemistry.

Presently standard range model 3 and model Y use LFP batteries.

https://electrek.co/2022/04/22/tesla-using-cobalt-free-lfp-batteries-in-half-new-cars-produced/

that just goes to show how many they are selling in China as the article you linked said exactly what I did. I didn't mention the model letters/numbers only the "standard range" I think for the bigger more desirable electric cars in north America, Tesla has plans to bring LFP in. ford is switching over in the Mach E for the 2024 model on standard range only also. When I have time, I can look at the others. I don't know anyone who bought a standard range where I live, but I guess if you live in a big city and don't do a lot of road trips that might work for you.

Yah. It will be interesting to see the adaptation of LFP going forward and which markets adapt them.

Presently all model 3 and Y’s sold in Canada come from China but they are not all LFP. Just the standard range. Model S and X come from the factory in freemont. The Cybertrucks will come from Texas and rumour has it they are the 4680’s produced on teslas own battery line.
That’s subject to change going forward and other rumours indicate that some Cybertruck models might be using 2170’s from Panasonics nevada factory. Hard to keep up with all of it. Interesting though.

Cheers.

[StirCrazy]

Reisender wrote:

StirCrazy wrote:

Reisender wrote:

StirCrazy wrote:

markchengr wrote:
Lithium iron phosphate batteries are lithium ion batteries. Same thing. The iron and phosphate are in the form of ions.

yes, but it's the chemical composition that controls the properties. LFP batteries have a wider range than what is used in cars.

it was 46C here yesterday and my LFP batter in the camper didn't spontaneously combust.

Steve

Hi Steve. Roughly half of the batteries used in electric cars now are LFP. Just over half of Teslas sold use LFP batteries and that number is increasing. Ever changing tech of course.

it is far far less than 1/2, I would hazard to guess in the less than 5% range of vehicles sold if you're in north America. tesla just started using LFP in a limited trial last couple years in China and now all Chinese sold tesla's are LFP, and only on the standard range. Ford VW and a couple others are starting to dabble with them

here is a list of care running LFP and they are only available in certain countries in this set up

Tesla Model S
Volkswagen e-Golf
Ford Fusion
Nissan Leaf
Porsche Panamera
BMW 740iL

so the tesla is the standard range model only sold in China.

The rest are not on anyone's list that is seriously looking at electric cars for anything other than going to the grocery store as the range sucks. There is a trade off in using LFP for cars, the negative being less energy density than the others, meaning the same ah of storage takes up more space and weighs more. the benefits being longer life, and a safer chemistry.

Presently standard range model 3 and model Y use LFP batteries.

https://electrek.co/2022/04/22/tesla-using-cobalt-free-lfp-batteries-in-half-new-cars-produced/

that just goes to show how many they are selling in China as the article you linked said exactly what I did. I didn't mention the model letters/numbers only the "standard range" I think for the bigger more desirable electric cars in north America, Tesla has plans to bring LFP in. ford is switching over in the Mach E for the 2024 model on standard range only also. When I have time, I can look at the others. I don't know anyone who bought a standard range where I live, but I guess if you live in a big city and don't do a lot of road trips that might work for you.

[Reisender]

StirCrazy wrote:

Reisender wrote:

StirCrazy wrote:

markchengr wrote:
Lithium iron phosphate batteries are lithium ion batteries. Same thing. The iron and phosphate are in the form of ions.

yes, but it's the chemical composition that controls the properties. LFP batteries have a wider range than what is used in cars.

it was 46C here yesterday and my LFP batter in the camper didn't spontaneously combust.

Steve

Hi Steve. Roughly half of the batteries used in electric cars now are LFP. Just over half of Teslas sold use LFP batteries and that number is increasing. Ever changing tech of course.

it is far far less than 1/2, I would hazard to guess in the less than 5% range of vehicles sold if you're in north America. tesla just started using LFP in a limited trial last couple years in China and now all Chinese sold tesla's are LFP, and only on the standard range. Ford VW and a couple others are starting to dabble with them

here is a list of care running LFP and they are only available in certain countries in this set up

Tesla Model S
Volkswagen e-Golf
Ford Fusion
Nissan Leaf
Porsche Panamera
BMW 740iL

so the tesla is the standard range model only sold in China.

The rest are not on anyone's list that is seriously looking at electric cars for anything other than going to the grocery store as the range sucks. There is a trade off in using LFP for cars, the negative being less energy density than the others, meaning the same ah of storage takes up more space and weighs more. the benefits being longer life, and a safer chemistry.

Presently standard range model 3 and model Y use LFP batteries.

https://electrek.co/2022/04/22/tesla-using-cobalt-free-lfp-batteries-in-half-new-cars-produced/

[Grit_dog]

^ :@

[pianotuna]

3 tons,

I guess you forget that I've posted numerous times on telcom jars so anyone with your vast knowledge of batteries would know about them.

However, just for you, when a string of batteries in a cell site has one battery go bad, all the batteries are replaced. These are true deep cycle batteries of the agm persuasion. The batteries which have not failed are "reconditioned" at Interstate Battery Stores and perhaps at other similar battery dealers. They are sold at a fraction of their original price. They come with a 3 month warranty.

From personal experience, I know they can survive being taken to just 8 volts (I don't recommend that). They can be charged at -40. They can provide up to 10 C for brief periods of time.

By the way I do use an Li battery--just not in my RV.

I do own and use an SiO2 as well. It is exposed to ambient temperatures year round.

For the record I do recommend LiFePO4 batteries when the climate allows it.

In future, please go and twist some one else's words. BKTDA

[Grit_dog]

^Now that was funny! Largely true but still funny….

[3_tons]

pianotuna wrote:

Grit dog wrote:
Ole ‘tuna, does it ever get tiring stirring that pot?

I think Li are fine for folks who live in extremely moderate conditions. But they need to have proper care.

Most Li are not robust by nature. The end user needs to take care of how they are charged and battery management systems have evolved to do so.

No amount of care can prevent calendar aging of Li batteries.

In Li's current state of the art only one chemistry would work for my particular needs. That is Lithium Titinate.

Here is some information on them.:Z

https://www.importel.com/product/pwr-s5/xs-power-titan8-series-lithium-titanate-oxide-battery-12v-50...

Unfortunately they are pretty much extremely highly priced.

As spoken by PT, a true ‘expert’ that doesn’t own a LFP (with a checkered history of endlessly disparaging them…), but ‘knows’ whats best for you while committing huge amounts of time promoting his favorite Purple Unicorns like SiO2 and discarded ‘telecom jars’ (whatever those are??), as well as ‘assuming’ the needs of the broader audience requires devices fully operable in minus 40 degree temperatures where he claims to reside and in places like Mars…

3 tons

[StirCrazy]

Reisender wrote:

StirCrazy wrote:

markchengr wrote:
Lithium iron phosphate batteries are lithium ion batteries. Same thing. The iron and phosphate are in the form of ions.

yes, but it's the chemical composition that controls the properties. LFP batteries have a wider range than what is used in cars.

it was 46C here yesterday and my LFP batter in the camper didn't spontaneously combust.

Steve

Hi Steve. Roughly half of the batteries used in electric cars now are LFP. Just over half of Teslas sold use LFP batteries and that number is increasing. Ever changing tech of course.

it is far far less than 1/2, I would hazard to guess in the less than 5% range of vehicles sold if you're in north America. tesla just started using LFP in a limited trial last couple years in China and now all Chinese sold tesla's are LFP, and only on the standard range. Ford VW and a couple others are starting to dabble with them

here is a list of care running LFP and they are only available in certain countries in this set up

Tesla Model S
Volkswagen e-Golf
Ford Fusion
Nissan Leaf
Porsche Panamera
BMW 740iL

so the tesla is the standard range model only sold in China.

The rest are not on anyone's list that is seriously looking at electric cars for anything other than going to the grocery store as the range sucks. There is a trade off in using LFP for cars, the negative being less energy density than the others, meaning the same ah of storage takes up more space and weighs more. the benefits being longer life, and a safer chemistry.

[pianotuna]

Time2roll,

I could not agree more. Since I'm no longer full time and 75 lots of upgrades are not going to happen as they make NO economic sense. SiO2 would be cheaper than LI Titinate--but I don't see that they are cost effective either. Not when I can get great service for used telcom bats at $1 per amp-hour.

I don't have a little mind nor a little world.

[Reisender]

StirCrazy wrote:

markchengr wrote:
Lithium iron phosphate batteries are lithium ion batteries. Same thing. The iron and phosphate are in the form of ions.

yes, but it's the chemical composition that controls the properties. LFP batteries have a wider range than what is used in cars.

it was 46C here yesterday and my LFP batter in the camper didn't spontaneously combust.

Steve

Hi Steve. Roughly half of the batteries used in electric cars now are LFP. Just over half of Teslas sold use LFP batteries and that number is increasing. Ever changing tech of course.

[time2roll]

pianotuna wrote:

Grit dog wrote:
Ole ‘tuna, does it ever get tiring stirring that pot?

I think Li are fine for folks who live in extremely moderate conditions. But they need to have proper care. All batteries need some care. LFP needs less than many others.

Most Li are not robust by nature. The end user needs to take care of how they are charged and battery management systems have evolved to do so. So with a BMS this is fully automated and BETTER protected than other batteries.

No amount of care can prevent calendar aging of Li batteries. Yes so sitting idle the LFP will only last 20 to 30 years

In Li's current state of the art only one chemistry would work for my particular needs. That is Lithium Titinate.

Here is some information on them.

https://www.importel.com/product/pwr-s5/xs-power-titan8-series-lithium-titanate-oxide-battery-12v-50...

Unfortunately they are pretty much extremely highly priced. So what good is it if price prohibits common use?

[StirCrazy]

Grit dog wrote:
Ole ‘tuna, does it ever get tiring stirring that pot?

sometimes I think he is in his own little world

[pianotuna]

Grit dog wrote:
Ole ‘tuna, does it ever get tiring stirring that pot?

I think Li are fine for folks who live in extremely moderate conditions. But they need to have proper care.

Most Li are not robust by nature. The end user needs to take care of how they are charged and battery management systems have evolved to do so.

No amount of care can prevent calendar aging of Li batteries.

In Li's current state of the art only one chemistry would work for my particular needs. That is Lithium Titinate.

Here is some information on them.

https://www.importel.com/product/pwr-s5/xs-power-titan8-series-lithium-titanate-oxide-battery-12v-50...

Unfortunately they are pretty much extremely highly priced.