Heavy Duty Brakes?

[Passage0ftime]

I am prepping a "new to me" TV and looking for some pre-season advice. My tow vehicles have always been trucks I bought new, so was very aware of prior maintenance etc. My new TV is a 3500 Silverado (06) 8.1 with 6 speed Allison auto trans, and this will be my first season with it. I have not owned either a dually or any vehicle this large. I am concerned with the brakes, not because they don't stop me, but because I have not tried with a vehicle in tow. Vehicle is going it for full fluid changes, transmission flush and replacement filters this next week, and I will be having the brakes checked (which nearly always means, "buddy, you need a brake job")

Is there a reason to shop up some hard core aftermarket HD brakes, or are the OEM on a vehicle like this already maximum heavy duty? It has 4 wheel disc brakes. Fifth wheel is about 9K fully loaded.

[ktmrfs]

On several vehicles I have gone with aftermarket pads. German cars get swapped to Akebono's ASAP to get rid of the black dust. Gets rid of the dust with no noticeable difference in brake performance or life.

But on vehicles with no dust and good stopping, I just stay with OEM. On my s-10 which had terrible pad life, 15K-20K miles or so, the tradeoff for longer life was worse brake performance. Tried one set, didn't take long to realize performance was sub par, So..... back to OEM.

On my two 2500's OEM is just fine. great braking, no dust, very very long life. I figure the one I passed on to our son will likely go 250K miles before it needs new pads. Just do a fluid flush every year and check the pins. Thankfully out here corrosion is a minor issue.

[Ron3rd]

Paul Clancy wrote:
GM brakes on the HD trucks have a real reputation for lasting forever and working extremely well. As with any they can suffer from rust in caliper pins if in heavy salt. As t/p said - oem is best on these for several hundred thousand. An inspection is always wise as is fluid change.

You could be right and it could apply to other GM vehicles. Wife's Traverse has over 70K on the clock and the front brake pads look like they'll go another 20K.

[BurbMan]

Ralph Cramden wrote:
Freaking salt.....and that liquid chemical they spray prior to a snow event I believe to even be worse than salt.

AMEN! We lived in Louisville for 4 years and I swear I got more rust down there than the prior 10 years the truck lived in NY!

Good point about trucks from the south. OP lists his location as "Ozarks", but the truck is new to him so no telling where it originated. You are 100% right the lines may be a non-issue, but at a minimum he needs to check and confirm that.

FWIW, I just had the LF caliper lock up so replaced all front brake hardware. I found AC Delco OEM parts online, and now they have zinc coated calipers and rotors that are corrosion resistant.

AC Delco Ceramic Pads
AC Delco Zinc-coated rotors
AC Delco zinc coated reman calipers

[Ralph_Cramden]

BurbMan wrote:
FYI, OEM pads on these trucks are ceramic. Lots of fluff floating around on this thread...some vehicles do benefit from upgraded brake components, the Tahoe and 1500 series trucks included. The GM HD trucks have excellent brakes and there's really nothing on the market better than the OEM stuff.

What the OP needs to look at more than the pads/rotors are the LINES...GM trucks from this era are known to have uncoated steel brake lines that rust out. I changed my lines to stainless and went to braided stainless hoses as well.

I agree 100%. The truck already has heavy duty brakes when compared to the 1500s.

As far as the lines, trucks whose life was spent in the south will not typically have the brake line rot issue seen in that generation. I went through the total replacement of brake lines, trans lines, fuel lines on a 2000 Silverado. That was after about 10 years and at 200K+ miles of PA road salt. I have seen some trucks of that generation that were from the southern states, and came through auctions ending up on used lots in PA, and the lines were almost like new. I've also seen plenty of Ford's and Dodges of early 00 vintage that needed new lines also, and shock mounts, exhaust systems, some even frame repairs. Freaking salt.....and that liquid chemical they spray prior to a snow event I believe to even be worse than salt.

I replaced trans lines on a 13 F150 last fall due to rot from the road salt. **** thing left me stranded to boot when it blew apart. No transmission dipstick or fill tube, at least of you don't feel like crawling underneath. What a great feature it is.

[PAThwacker]

BurbMan wrote:
FYI, OEM pads on these trucks are ceramic. Lots of fluff floating around on this thread...some vehicles do benefit from upgraded brake components, the Tahoe and 1500 series trucks included. The GM HD trucks have excellent brakes and there's really nothing on the market better than the OEM stuff.

What the OP needs to look at more than the pads/rotors are the LINES...GM trucks from this era are known to have uncoated steel brake lines that rust out. I changed my lines to stainless and went to braided stainless hoses as well.

I redid my brakes lines after I almost lost my sub into lake. Put boat on trailer, attached winch and chain. Return to truck, remove e brake, shift to drive poppped. Floored it out of sloped launch and thanked god nobody was walking in front of truck.

[BurbMan]

FYI, OEM pads on these trucks are ceramic. Lots of fluff floating around on this thread...some vehicles do benefit from upgraded brake components, the Tahoe and 1500 series trucks included. The GM HD trucks have excellent brakes and there's really nothing on the market better than the OEM stuff.

What the OP needs to look at more than the pads/rotors are the LINES...GM trucks from this era are known to have uncoated steel brake lines that rust out. I changed my lines to stainless and went to braided stainless hoses as well.

[time2roll]

Keep the truck stock OEM. Spend your money installing disks on the trailer.

[4x4ord]

ScottG wrote:

4x4ord wrote:
I'm happy to tow at 62 mph. Likely towing at 70 mph will increase your kinetic energy by about 35% and your fuel consumption by 15%. If you're worried about safety you could just slow down a little.

People who want to stop better don't just want to do so at 70. They want to stop better at all speeds.

Then they should change their tires not their brakes.

[Planning]

mapguy wrote:

Planning wrote:

mapguy wrote:
pin and pad fitment maintenance is where most fail....on these trucks.

What is your regimen for these items?

IMO most shops that push free brake inspections do poor on the fine points of a top notch brake service. Just replacing the pads/rotors is not a "complete" brake service.

If a 4lb. hammer is needed to get brake pads out of caliper -they are not working properly and a large amount of work will be necessary to get everything moving freely again.

Thank you for the detailed response.

[Grit_dog]

ScottG, not going to convince him.....but you're correct. I've never heard of such a thing and yes some aftermarket brake products are much better than OE....and some are not.
It's OE legal speak like you said.
I have a preference for ceramic pads in recent years. Would OEs still stop the vehicles? Absolutely. But I like doing it with less pedal effort, more braking power and less brake dust!

[Grit_dog]

theoldwizard1 wrote:
If you are NOT having your service done at the dealership, make sure they are using NEW OEM transmission fluid not just "cleaning" the old fluid and adding some "magic" additive !

A lot of OEM offer "premium" brake pads, typically made from ceramic. Again, if you are at the dealership, ask about it and make sure they are using genuine OEM replacement discs.

If you are taking it to an independent shop, there are a lot of good NAME BRAND brake parts out there. I prefer Raybestos Advanced/Hybrid Technology pads BUT they have several different grades of parts. Same is true with rotors. My old E150 used to "eat" rotors until I switched to netter quality name brands.

Never heard of "cleaning" oil and dumping it back in, but yeah don't do that. And for the Alli in particular, use Castrol Transynd if you do a fluid replacement. Idk why other than Allison used to double the factory warranty on med duty and above transmissions if it was replaced with Transynd early. Tells me that it's good.

[mapguy]

Planning wrote:

mapguy wrote:
pin and pad fitment maintenance is where most fail....on these trucks.

What is your regimen for these items?

Typically, disassemble once a year to inspect, clean, and re-grease caliper pins. I check the slide pin bushings for slop, too. Replace any bad bushings or caliper pins that are worn or corroded. On this truck -caliper pins from front can be interchanged with the rear to get rid of the need for using a t-55 driver in a confined space.

Refit pads to caliper -typically enough corrosion happens to require some filing or sanding to get pads fitted properly. They need to fit but move freely. I do repaint the brake pads backing plate as this does slow the corrosion down a little. Always check the stainless wear inserts for damage that will prevent pads from moving freely.

Lubricant the pad slide surface points carefully. indiscriminate greasing here will contaminate the pads.

The idea is to ensure the calipers move freely on the caliper pins and the brake pads move freely as the caliper moves in and out.

I also check the front wheel bearings for slop while truck is jacked up. I do this early in the process before taking wheel assy off hub.

The rear is pretty much the same situation except -no unit style wheel bearing.

In rear check for hub seal leakage drip, too. As a hub seal drip will contaminate the parking brake shoes.

My preferred brake grease is CRC synthetic brake grease -this product does not gum up like all the permatex products i tried. Definitely don't use anti-seize lubricant -as this will typically attack the rubber caliper bushings causing premature failure.

Several of the Duramax Diesel forums have pictures and write ups detailing how to do a complete high quality brake service.

IMO most shops that push free brake inspections do poor on the fine points of a top notch brake service. Just replacing the pads/rotors is not a "complete" brake service.

If a 4lb. hammer is needed to get brake pads out of caliper -they are not working properly and a large amount of work will be necessary to get everything moving freely again.

[ScottG]

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

ScottG wrote:

Turtle n Peeps wrote:
I don't know what you mean by heavy duty?

All OEM brakes are programed into their ECM for the type of pad material they have. IOW's it's best to stay with OEM material.

I'm sorry but that is absolutely false. The computer has no idea what pads your using nor would it care. It only monitors the rotation of the rotors and adjusts accordingly.
So the computer working with better brakes is a non-issue.

Also, brake pads are made to a price point. That's why it's easy to find better brakes.
Finally, if you go to the dealer service counter and buy a set of pads, unless they are special ordered, you are getting service replacement and not exact OEM's.

I've replaced brakes long before they needed it just to get superior performance. Started doing that with my 3/4T Chevy with a TC. I could just about stand it on it's nose. Came in real handy when an accident happened right in front of me on the freeway.

There's absolutely no down side to have better brakes.

Sorry, but if you think that BMW is the only manufacture that pairs their pads to their ECM you are sorely mistaken.

Here is what one manufacture says about the subject: "Last but not least, there is one more reason why we recommend using genuine brake pads. All models come equipped as standard with VDC and other similar stability control systems. VDC and ABS help control the movement of the car, and have been designed to suit genuine brake pads. Using non-genuine brake pads can result in different friction coefficients and braking characteristics, and may prevent VDC or ABS from performing at their best level." (this is where the pairing of the ECM comes in)

Now, can the OP bolt a set of pads on his truck that out performs an OEM pad for lets say extreme heat? Sure! BUT it will be lacking in other fields such as cold braking or wear or many, many other fields.

Braking balance is the trick to having good brakes on the street. If someone races like I do, I can tailor pads and even the complete brake system to what I'm doing. But for the street (towing) you need to have tradeoffs and build a balanced system.

Here is more on the subject from a manufacture: "We have to determine whether the trade-off between great braking performance and fade-resistance is balanced appropriately with the level of noise and dust generated. We are the ones who determine the performance levels that we provide to customers, but the biggest obstacle is trying to figure out the balance that delivers the required performance at the highest level. Increasing the brake's friction coefficient improves braking performance and pedal feel, but in turn affects quality in other areas. The ideal balance might be achieved with the brake pad requirements, but the calipers and disc rotors can also play a key role. All this is part of the enjoyment of developing genuine parts.

Pretty much exactly what I have been saying in this thread! All of these parts are part of a "system." If you change one part of the system that was not developed with the system in mine, bad things or unintended consequences "can" happen. They might be minor, like more brake dust, or more major like poor cold brake performance. But they will happen.

Pure BS.
All manufacturers have legal speak to keep you using their OEM parts. ALL of them.

You can watch hours of video's of enthusiasts and even BMW dealers installing better brakes on YouTube. They never have to do anything to the computer.


Why on earth do some people take it so personally that others want to have better brakes?

[mapguy]

73guna wrote:
Flush and fill your power steering fluid also.
This made a world of difference for my truck.

This would be on my "To Do List" for OP's truck or any other new to me truck that uses a hydro-boost brake system. Proper function of the power steering system insures brakes will work when the pedal is pushed. A poorly maintained ps system on these trucks can exhibit brake malfunction if hydro-boost looses line pressure under load. Two main symptoms -loss of steering assist and or loss of brake assist.

Brake fluid flush with ABS cycling would be on my "To Do List", too. I use DOT 4 fluid not 5.1 mainly for moisture resistance.

Allison fluid change and filters would be a good idea, too. Unless service has been documented as being done at the proper intervals for fluid used in transmission. This year truck, depending on S/N could have had Dex III (Allison TES-389) or Dex IV (GM spec)fluid installed. Dex IV has caused seal hardening issues for some. The easy way to avoid the issue is to use certified Allison TES-389 (normal service intervals) or Allison TES-295 specification (extended service interval)fluids for service.