Is my Ford Escape worthless for fullfilling my dream? :-(

[GaiaGoddess]

I've had this dream to live in an RV (travel trailer, specifically) for about 5 or 6 years now. I was drawn to the Ford Escape and was happy to learn they can tow up to 3500 pounds. I bought one last year. Step one complete!

Now i've run into a problem...people are telling me my Escape shouldn't tow that much, it's not safe. I heard horror stories about Escapes not being able to handle it. They recommend I stick to 2000 pounds or less, but what trailers weigh that little?! I want to live in this thing which means it needs to be self sustainable, with a full kitchen, bathroom, and at least a full size bed. All the trailers I found with that stuff are at least 3000 pounds. And then you have to figure the weight of the fluids and cargo, which would be a lot since i'd be living in it. I cannot live in a pop up camper or a teardrop camper.

Are there any decent trailers I can safely tow? Is my Escape worthless for what I wanted to do with it? I bought it specifically for this reason! By the way, it's a 2008 6-cylinder automatic transmission, front wheel drive. There is no towing package on it yet but I was planning on having one put on, IF I can even find a trailer I can tow! Any advice?

[GaiaGoddess]

bimbert84 wrote:
Hi Gaia,

Well it's certainly the easiest and most accurate way: if you want to know how much something weighs, put it on a scale. But don't take it to a "weigh station" on the side of the freeway, take it to a CAT scale (http://catscale.com/cat-scale-locator) or something similar. Weigh the entire rig (be sure to put each axle on a different section of the scale), pull off the scale, unhitch, then weigh just the tow vehicle. You can then derive everything you need from the results.

This link doesn't work, but it's alright, I am pretty sure my brother will be able to help me out, he works at a towing company. I don't know why I never thought to talk to him in the first place, I don't see him a lot though.

[GaiaGoddess]

bimbert84 wrote:
Hi Gaia,

Well it's certainly the easiest and most accurate way: if you want to know how much something weighs, put it on a scale. But don't take it to a "weigh station" on the side of the freeway, take it to a CAT scale (http://catscale.com/cat-scale-locator) or something similar. Weigh the entire rig (be sure to put each axle on a different section of the scale), pull off the scale, unhitch, then weigh just the tow vehicle. You can then derive everything you need from the results.

This link doesn't work, but it's alright, I am pretty sure my brother will be able to help me out, he works at a towing company. I don't know why I never thought to talk to him in the first place, I don't see him a lot though.

[GaiaGoddess]

Tvov wrote:
Start looking around for a truck weigh scale -- you might see signs for a "Cat Scale".

Around me, garbage is taken to a "transfer station" - vehicles are weighed before and after getting rid or (or dumping) garbage. The guys at the transfer station will weigh vehicles and trailers during slow times, just stop in and ask.

Check big truck stops, sometimes they have a scale.

Garden / landscaping supply places sometimes have a scale to weigh dump trucks moving dirt and stone.

Ask at your local repair garage, they may know where a scale is. Do you have any friends who drive big trucks? (big dump trucks, tractor trailers, etc) I bet they know where a scale is. You might check you state's motor vehicle department website, scale sites might be listed.

When you start asking and looking, I think you might be surprised that there are more scales around you than you think.

Thanks for the suggestions! I can ask my brother, he drives a tow truck for a living and probably has a scale at his job or would know where the nearest one is to us.

[GaiaGoddess]

rjxj wrote:
Hummm. Been doing for years? Then how did the undersized vehicle come into the picture.

Because 1) my manual says it tows 3500 pounds, 2) the official Ford towing guide said it towed 3500 pounds, 3) my friend who tows a camper told me i'd have no problem with my Escape, 4) many RV's that I was in at the RV show a few years ago had flyers on them saying they can be towed by Escapes SPECIFICALLY, not just SUV's or CUV's but ESCAPES, and 5) I saw pictures online of Escapes driving down the road with a trailer behind them. I didn't think after ALL THAT that any of it would be wrong. I had no reason to believe otherwise.

[bimbert84]

Hi Gaia,

GaiaGoddess wrote:

So the only real way to tell what you are carrying and/or towing is to drive to one of those weigh stations you see along interstates?

Well it's certainly the easiest and most accurate way: if you want to know how much something weighs, put it on a scale. But don't take it to a "weigh station" on the side of the freeway, take it to a CAT scale (CAT scale locator) or something similar. Weigh the entire rig (be sure to put each axle on a different section of the scale), pull off the scale, unhitch, then weigh just the tow vehicle. You can then derive everything you need from the results.

GaiaGoddess wrote:

What if the nearest one is 2 or 3 hours from you, that can't be safe to just throw it all together and guess before you can even know for sure if it's safe!

And if it's not safe, it's too late because odds are you already own the trailer. That's why it's so important to understand how it all works so you can come up with some reasonable estimates ahead of time.

The tow vehicle itself is easy enough to weigh on its own. Throw your gear into the tow vehicle and head to a scale (recycling centers and scrap yards typically have scales, too).

For the trailer, I would estimate like this:

trailer GVW = trailer GVWR
tongue weight = 15% of trailer GVW

Add the tongue weight above plus another 100# for the hitch itself to the scale reading of the tow vehicle. If this total is under your tow vehicle's GVWR, you should be fine for carrying.

-- Rob

[Tvov]

Start looking around for a truck weigh scale -- you might see signs for a "Cat Scale".

Around me, garbage is taken to a "transfer station" - vehicles are weighed before and after getting rid or (or dumping) garbage. The guys at the transfer station will weigh vehicles and trailers during slow times, just stop in and ask.

Check big truck stops, sometimes they have a scale.

Garden / landscaping supply places sometimes have a scale to weigh dump trucks moving dirt and stone.

Ask at your local repair garage, they may know where a scale is. Do you have any friends who drive big trucks? (big dump trucks, tractor trailers, etc) I bet they know where a scale is. You might check you state's motor vehicle department website, scale sites might be listed.

When you start asking and looking, I think you might be surprised that there are more scales around you than you think.

[azrving]

Hummm. Been doing for years? Then how did the undersized vehicle come into the picture. Yes, obviously they dont know much or they wouldn't tell you to pull a 3500 lb trailer with an escape. Yes the trailer can be taken to a scale and weighed all by itself.

Yes, as i said its a pain to weigh all that stuff but what it accomplishes through that huge sacrifice is that the vehicle and the trailer are not OVER LOADED. Its tough, but its just a way to do it using math, not by guessing or emotion.

If its difficult to weigh an item or several small items you can hold the item or put items in a box and hold the box and weigh yourself then get back on the scale with out the box of items. Then subtract your weight from the weight of you and the box of items and you will have the weight of the box of items.

The weight of those items is then put in column form and added together to establish the total weight added. Its not opinion, its not advice, its not individual expression, its fact. Good luck.

[GaiaGoddess]

rjxj wrote:
You don't have to estimate anything. One of my suggestions about 187.2 posts back had suggestions of how you could do it. You can weigh the truck, trailer and everything that is carried in them. Even if you dont own the trailer you can mock up what you would take with you and weigh those items. You can look at others lists of things to remember and come up with those weights.

For example pretend that one you are going on vac for a week or two and gather all the things you need to take. Weigh them with a bath scale or small scale. Yes it all may seem like a pita but thats just the way it is. If you dont want to teach your self you will suffer in the end.

A bathroom scale?! You mean the kind that are only big enough for your feet? Maybe that would work with all your things, although it would take a LOT of time do put everything on there one thing at a time. But how do you weigh your trailer by itself, drive to a weigh station and unhook it from your car and park it on there?

Also write down the handles of all those who not only said that you can pull 3500 lb, but wanted to pm you with uneducated advice and see if they will contribute to transmission repair or total rig replacement and hospital bills if you lose control of it.

Uneducated advice huh LOL I'm sure they would be very insulted if they knew you said that!

Listen. Take notes. Make lists. Read. Visit campgrounds. Talk to others. No substitute for educating yourself. Depending on others is like cheating in school, you just screw yourself.

That is what i'm doing, that's what i've been doing for years! And isn't "depending on others" exactly what all of those other things are? In the end, ALL the information you get is from others.

[GaiaGoddess]

bimbert84 wrote:
Yes, absolutely. For most of us that have actually done that, it's a real eye-opener. My 5800# trailer actually weighs 7500#. And FWIW, that difference is not at all unusual. So when people estimate their loaded weight at only 150# more than the published weight, you can see why alarms start going off.

-- Rob

So the only real way to tell what you are carrying and/or towing is to drive to one of those weigh stations you see along interstates? What if the nearest one is 2 or 3 hours from you, that can't be safe to just throw it all together and guess before you can even know for sure if it's safe! This is why I decided I'm just going to go with a teardrop, better to be safe than sorry.

[GaiaGoddess]

bimbert84 wrote:
Hi Gaia,

GaiaGoddess wrote:

For the last like 6 years, I have been trying to find a trailer with a GVWR lower than what my Escape can TOW. So I was looking at the trailers' GVWR, not my Escape's.

OK, now we're back on the right track. But how are you figuring what the Escape can tow? Are you using its published "tow rating"? If so, please see the definition of "tow rating" here:

http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/27206374/gotomsg/27217884.cfm#27217884

Yeah I was mostly going by what the Ford towing guide said, as well as my Escape's manual, they both said the same thing, 3500. I do realize though, that there are a lot of factors involved.

Yes, you basically have it. But carrying and pulling are very different, and impact very different aspects of the tow vehicle. Pulling impacts engine power, gearing, and especially braking. Carrying impacts frame, suspension, axles, and tires.

As an analogy, let's say you need to carry 300# of pebbles up to a garden at the top of a hill. Do you grab a backpack or a wagon? Either way, you're the one doing the work, which is moving yourself plus the 300# load. But clearly one way is easier than the other. If we assume you weigh 100#, then your GCW (Gross Combined Weight) in either case is 400#. If you choose the backpack, your GVW (Gross Vehicle Weight) is also 400# because your spine has to support the entire load. If you choose the wagon, however, your GVW is only 100# because the wagon carries 300# of the 400#. Towing a trailer, however, is more like a wheelbarrow. Most of the weight is carried by the wheelbarrow's axle, but you also have to bear some of the burden when you lift on the handles, maybe 100# of the 300#. That portion of the weight adds to your GVW, bringing it to 200#. The amount of weight you have to lift (not pull) is analogous to tongue weight.

Good analogy! I do understand this. My biggest thing now is how do you even figure out how much you are carrying OR towing, exactly? Is there a giant scale somewhere that you can just drive over?

[azrving]

You don't have to estimate anything. One of my suggestions about 187.2 posts back had suggestions of how you could do it. You can weigh the truck, trailer and everything that is carried in them. Even if you dont own the trailer you can mock up what you would take with you and weigh those items. You can look at others lists of things to remember and come up with those weights.

For example pretend that one you are going on vac for a week or two and gather all the things you need to take. Weigh them with a bath scale or small scale. Yes it all may seem like a pita but thats just the way it is. If you dont want to teach your self you will suffer in the end.

Also write down the handles of all those who not only said that you can pull 3500 lb, but wanted to pm you with uneducated advice and see if they will contribute to transmission repair or total rig replacement and hospital bills if you lose control of it.

Listen. Take notes. Make lists. Read. Visit campgrounds. Talk to others. No substitute for educating yourself. Depending on others is like cheating in school, you just screw yourself.

[bimbert84]

GaiaGoddess wrote:

how can you even tell how much your vehicle weighs, how much your trailer weighs fully loaded, and how much it all weighs together? The only numbers you can know for sure is what the dry weight of the trailer is and the weight of your vehicle with nobody or no cargo in it.

That's pretty much true. But you can get pretty good estimates based on the experiences of others.

GaiaGoddess wrote:

Is there some giant scale somewhere that weighs these things? Can you just drive up to one of those truck weigh stations on the interstates?

Yes, absolutely. For most of us that have actually done that, it's a real eye-opener. My 5800# trailer actually weighs 7300#. And FWIW, that difference is not at all unusual. So when people estimate their loaded weight at only 150# more than the published weight, you can see why alarms start going off.

-- Rob

[bimbert84]

Hi Gaia,

GaiaGoddess wrote:

For the last like 6 years, I have been trying to find a trailer with a GVWR lower than what my Escape can TOW. So I was looking at the trailers' GVWR, not my Escape's.

OK, now we're back on the right track. But how are you figuring what the Escape can tow? Are you using its published "tow rating"? If so, please see the definition of "tow rating" here:

http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/27206374/gotomsg/27217884.cfm#27217884

GaiaGoddess wrote:

And as for carrying vs towing, I guess I don't understand the difference, carrying is how much weight is IN the Escape, and towing is how much is BEHIND it, but in the end isn't it all still getting pulled/towed/carried by the tow vehicle?

Yes, you basically have it. But carrying and pulling are very different, and impact very different aspects of the tow vehicle. Pulling impacts engine power, gearing, and especially braking. Carrying impacts frame, suspension, axles, and tires.

As an analogy, let's say you need to carry 300# of pebbles up to a garden at the top of a hill. Do you grab a backpack or a wagon? Either way, you're the one doing the work, which is moving yourself plus the 300# load. But clearly one way is easier than the other. If we assume you weigh 100#, then your GCW (Gross Combined Weight) in either case is 400#. If you choose the backpack, your GVW (Gross Vehicle Weight) is also 400# because your spine has to support the entire load. If you choose the wagon, however, your GVW is only 100# because the wagon carries 300# of the 400#. Towing a trailer, however, is more like a wheelbarrow. Most of the weight is carried by the wheelbarrow's axle, but you also have to bear some of the burden when you lift on the handles, maybe 100# of the 300#. That portion of the weight adds to your GVW, bringing it to 200#. The amount of weight you have to lift (not pull) is analogous to tongue weight.

With small vehicles, the biggest limitation is almost always what it can carry, not what it can pull. Unfortunately, "tow rating" addresses only what you can pull (and even then it addresses only the weight aspect, not aerodynamics*, which is addressed by the frontal area rating). You also have to take a look at what it can carry, and I think you'll be surprised at how little that actually is. How much will it have to carry? The weight of the vehicle itself, your weight, the weight of the fuel, the weight of everything else in the vehicle, and the tongue weight of the trailer. All of these things will be pushing downward on the Escape's chassis. If the total of all these things exceeds your Escape's GVWR, you're overloaded.



*For an illustration of the effects of aerodynamic drag, grab a 1-2' square of cardboard and drive slowly down the road. Hold the cardboard out the window, being sure to present an edge to the oncoming wind. No problem. Now turn it so that you're presenting the flat side to the wind. Hold on tight! Be careful not to hurt your wrist.

Now imagine that cardboard is 9' high by 7' across and you're travelling at 55mph.


-- Rob

[GaiaGoddess]

popupcamping wrote:

you seriously think you could be warm in ANY trailer at -40?

you will freeze to death plus have a 500 a month propane bill

Well there are people that do it, we have a trailer park in my town where 1/3 of them are travel trailers, and they live in them in the winter, and it gets -40 sometimes in Minnesota. Obviously though none of them are pop ups.

[popupcamping]

GaiaGoddess wrote:


Another minus to the pop ups though, you can't live in them year round, can you? I couldn't imagine it being safe and warm in there in -40 cold and blowing snow.

you seriously think you could be warm in ANY trailer at -40?

you will freeze to death plus have a 500 a month propane bill