Major Ecoboost repair, long delays

[Groover]

My daughter parked her 2013 F150 Ecoboost with about 140,000 miles on it back in mid-May. When she started it back up it would barely run and was very rough. To make a long story short it was parked at the location of her medical school graduation and after graduation she had about 7 weeks to move from San Antonio to Dayton Ohio for the 5 year residency period. That included buying a house and moving her stuff and her horses. The truck was required to move the gooseneck horse trailer.

She took it to a local mechanic that seemed to have a good reputation but also he was the only one that would take the truck in quickly. The mechanic diagnosed the problem as a failed electric vacuum pump that had self destructed and some of the debris got sucked into the engine. The debris made a mess of the passenger side head. After working on it for about 2 weeks he told her that it was fixed and to take it away. It was far from fixed but did make to my house in Tennessee where I borrowed a truck with a gooseneck hitch to get her horses the rest of the way to Dayton.

The truck has been sitting at the local Ford dealer ever since waiting on a factory reconditioned long block. I was first told the long block would be there in August which was by far the best delivery promise that I could find plus it would come with a 3 year Ford warrantee. In August the delivery promise got changed to October 27th and I was advised that I was the 104th customer in line. Well, I still don't have long block but I have moved up to the 84th customer in line. At that rate I expect to get the truck back around Christmas, 2023. The place that rebuilds engines for Ford says that they can't get parts and are only filling high priority orders. The dealer told me that mine is a high priority but even that obviously isn't helping.

I have heard that there are various impediments to making new vehicles but those seem to center around electronic items, not engines.

I am trying to figure out if I have any viable options. I found some taken out of wrecks on the internet but looked up reviews for those places and they were awful. I got the impression that less than one in four of the engines they shipped actually worked.

If anyone has any good ideas I would love to hear them. I do want to be able to have confidence in the truck after the repair since my daughter plans to drive it for the next 5 years. To me that is going to take a long block or better but I don't know where to find one with a reasonable delivery.

Oh yeah, the electric vacuum pump seems to be there in case you need to apply the brakes while the turbo charger has the intake manifold pressurized. So it connected to the manifold via the brake vacuum booster and debris can be sucked through. Apparently, failures of the electric pumps are not uncommon. The amount of damage that my daughter's truck suffered is. That is what the mechanic told us but based on some other issues that have come up I don't put a lot of stock in what that guy told us but the bottom line is that I still need a good engine.

[Groover]

theoldwizard1 wrote:

Groover wrote:
That is what the mechanic told us. I don't want to call him a liar but I have not been able to find this pump or even a vacuum hose going to the area where he said it was.

Older EcoBoost engines DID have an auxiliary vacuum pump. Some were electric, some were mechanical.

Groover wrote:
I do know that both of my Ecoboost engines have vacuum boost for manual brake applications with electric braking for computer activated brake situations, like collision avoidance or ABS adjustments. I would bet that you still have a vacuum canister right behind the master brake cylinder.

Mine are full electric. No vacuum chamber on the master cylinder. This is pretty new. Only out for a couple of years. The whole assembly is made by Bosch.

That is interesting. Thanks for the update.

[theoldwizard1]

NamMedevac 70 wrote:
bad luck for early adopters. never seemed practical to me. too much heat and stress for small engine.

EcoBoost (turbo, direct injected gas engine) has been around for over 15 years. The technology is well proven !

[theoldwizard1]

Groover wrote:
That is what the mechanic told us. I don't want to call him a liar but I have not been able to find this pump or even a vacuum hose going to the area where he said it was.

Older EcoBoost engines DID have an auxiliary vacuum pump. Some were electric, some were mechanical.

Groover wrote:
I do know that both of my Ecoboost engines have vacuum boost for manual brake applications with electric braking for computer activated brake situations, like collision avoidance or ABS adjustments. I would bet that you still have a vacuum canister right behind the master brake cylinder.

Mine are full electric. No vacuum chamber on the master cylinder. This is pretty new. Only out for a couple of years. The whole assembly is made by Bosch.

[valhalla360]

ronharmless wrote:

NamMedevac 70 wrote:
bad luck for early adopters. never seemed practical to me. too much heat and stress for small engine.

Not sure what the size of the cylinders has to do with its ability to handle stress and heat. Wouldn’t that primarily be the function of the block and cooling system? Seeing as it’s been around for at least 10 years and is still being sold - seems like it has a worthwhile track record.

Name the engine and I’ll point you to a post about someone that had a major problem with it; that doesn’t make it “impractical”.

Reality is somewhere in the middle.

A smaller block putting out the same HP, has more heat and stress per unit of mass/volume in the block but as you say, the engine has been around for 10yrs with no sign of it going away, so probably not a huge issue statistically.

I suspect a lot of it depends on how it gets used.

Vast majority of 1/2 ton trucks never tow anything or tow very rarely and not at max ratings. On a grocery run, you aren't asking much of the engine, so it never gets that much stress. Even if you stomp on it in a drag race, the extra load doesn't have enough time to overheat anything. Those engines are probably fine for 250k miles with just normal maintenance.

But for those relatively rare folks who do a lot of towing near/at max ratings, particularly mountain towing, it is a lot more stress. Particularly if the owner is the type to just put the hammer down and not pay attention to the gauges, I could see them easily over stressing the engine and shortening the engines life.

[Groover]

theoldwizard1 wrote:

Groover wrote:

Oh yeah, the electric vacuum pump seems to be there in case you need to apply the brakes while the turbo charger has the intake manifold pressurized. So it connected to the manifold via the brake vacuum booster and debris can be sucked through. Apparently, failures of the electric pumps are not uncommon. The amount of damage that my daughter's truck suffered is. That is what the mechanic told us but based on some other issues that have come up I don't put a lot of stock in what that guy told us but the bottom line is that I still need a good engine.

Yes, vacuum can travel from the pump to the intake, but I can not understand the failure mode of the pump that could damage the engine ?

FYI, my 2022 F150 2.7L EcoBoost has electric power assist brakes and electric power assist steering.

That is what the mechanic told us. I don't want to call him a liar but I have not been able to find this pump or even a vacuum hose going to the area where he said it was. Unfortunately, it is my daughter's truck and since she had picked out this shop and arranged the first repair she thought that it was appropriate for her to see it through. She is brilliant in several fields but mechanics isn't her strong point. It is possible that she misunderstood what the mechanic said. It is also possible that he just made up a story to justify billing her for a botched job.

I do know that both of my Ecoboost engines have vacuum boost for manual brake applications with electric braking for computer activated brake situations, like collision avoidance or ABS adjustments. I would bet that you still have a vacuum canister right behind the master brake cylinder.

[theoldwizard1]

Groover wrote:

Oh yeah, the electric vacuum pump seems to be there in case you need to apply the brakes while the turbo charger has the intake manifold pressurized. So it connected to the manifold via the brake vacuum booster and debris can be sucked through. Apparently, failures of the electric pumps are not uncommon. The amount of damage that my daughter's truck suffered is. That is what the mechanic told us but based on some other issues that have come up I don't put a lot of stock in what that guy told us but the bottom line is that I still need a good engine.

Yes, vacuum can travel from the pump to the intake, but I can not understand the failure mode of the pump that could damage the engine ?

FYI, my 2022 F150 2.7L EcoBoost has electric power assist brakes and electric power assist steering.

[2112]

Groover wrote:
I don't believe that towing or running the engine heavily loaded has much effect other than the increased RPM increases the number of load cycles per mile.

The 3.5EB delivers its max torque under 3000 rpm. You shouldn't ever need to run it above 3000 rpm.

Just letting my 6sp transmission do its thing in T/H mode, mine shifts at about 2600 rpm on flat land. The 5.0 V8 will be shifting over 4000 rpm to provide similar performance.

[Groover]

Grit dog wrote:

But not holding the first guy accountable and then not being proactive for the next 6 months is largely the fault of the vehicle owner.
[COLOR=]I guess that you missed the part that we were in the process of moving 1250 miles and were slap up against the deadline for the move. Fighting the dealer from this far away would be very challenging. We did get a $4,000 refund from the credit card company though.

Supply chain “issues” are no secret and they weren’t 6 months ago either. Whether actual or just an excuse.
I spent 2 days on the phone trying to find a long block or good junkyard engine with no success. I did speak with Jasper and Fraser amongst others and neither of them would even give me a rough estimate of when they would have one ready.

Anytime you just sit back and “hope” something goes right the chances of that happening are diminished.
I was on their tails the entire time. Who do you think prompted them to push it with Ford and then order a different motor?


I understand how it’s more complicated when one doesn’t understand vehicles but half a year to fix a car is just not taking control of the issue.
I am sure that you would have gotten it done much faster.

[Groover]

I finally got the truck back and it runs great! I am confident that the long block has resolved all of the mechanic induced problems. If not, I have a 3 year parts and labor warrantee on it. Anything that lasts 3 years should be good to go for a while. If it makes 5 years my daughter should be in position to just buy a new truck.

Interestingly, after Ford telling us that they were not even trying to get a long block to me one showed up the same day as the one ordered from Fraser. The Fraser block had a 5 year warrantee but I think that it was just for the long block. The Ford has a 3 year parts and labor warrantee. We went with the Ford warrantee and returned the Fraser. With the Thanksgiving holiday and this area having very high flue and covid rates a lot of mechanics were staying home sick. But I was able to pick up the truck last Friday. Now I just need to get it to Ohio.


For those that blame the "small engine with a turbocharger":
This truck has 150,000 miles on it with a fair amount of that pulling a 3 horse trailer. The original problem was the infamous timing belt stretch on the early models. I don't believe that towing or running the engine heavily loaded has much effect other than the increased RPM increases the number of load cycles per mile. All of the other problems, including the damaged running boards, seem to be the result of sloppy workmanship. Again, not load or size related. The new long block is supposed to have upgraded parts to eliminate the chain issues. So do all production engines starting with the 2016 models. On a related note, the 3.5 turbo is actually about 15lbs heavier than the 5.0. Ford beefed it up somewhere.

[2112]

I may regret this tomorrow (am I jinxing it?) but I just started my 12th year with my 2011 EB and after 105K miles not a single problem. Had a transmission recall for a reflash.

She's been a good truck for me.

[ronharmless]

NamMedevac 70 wrote:
bad luck for early adopters. never seemed practical to me. too much heat and stress for small engine.

Not sure what the size of the cylinders has to do with its ability to handle stress and heat. Wouldn’t that primarily be the function of the block and cooling system? Seeing as it’s been around for at least 10 years and is still being sold - seems like it has a worthwhile track record.

Name the engine and I’ll point you to a post about someone that had a major problem with it; that doesn’t make it “impractical”.

[Grit_dog]

Btw, trusting the dealer and their story is also part of the problem. Unless dealers pre pay for their parts from the mother ship. Which makes zero sense. Although idk a lot about franchises so icbw.

[Grit_dog]

And a month later after “finding” an engine they don’t have it fixed or just no update? (Since someone else resuscitated this old thread)
It’s unfortunate that your dealer sat on it for 6 months and even more unfortunate the first mechanic according you screwed up more than he fixed.
But not holding the first guy accountable and then not being proactive for the next 6 months is largely the fault of the vehicle owner.
Supply chain “issues” are no secret and they weren’t 6 months ago either. Whether actual or just an excuse.
Anytime you just sit back and “hope” something goes right the chances of that happening are diminished.
I understand how it’s more complicated when one doesn’t understand vehicles but half a year to fix a car is just not taking control of the issue.

[NamMedevac_70]

bad luck for early adopters. never seemed practical to me. too much heat and stress for small engine.