New power outlet question

[plasticmaster]

I'd like to install a new power outlet to use primarily for my toaster oven. The only circuit that I can tie in to is the circuit that the water heater plugs in to. Are other outlets typically tied into this circuit and would it be safe for me to tie into this circuit for another outlet? Would I be constantly tripping the breaker if toaster oven and water heater on electric were both on at same time?

[enblethen]

Remember that the plug strip is not GFCI protected.

[Bucky_Badger]

gmw photos wrote:

LVJJJ wrote:
I've always tied into the Microwave circuit for extra kitchen appliances like toaster and coffee maker. Since the MW dual outlet usually has the 2nd plug-in holes sealed over, I just drill out the plastic where the plug holes should be then plug in a power strip and run the cord down to under the upper cabinets so then I have several outlets to use. If too many appliances are plugged in so they trip the breaker, then just unplug one or two.

Long ago when I wired the houses I built, seems to me you could put 8 or 10 outlets on a 15 amp circuit with 14-2 wire. So I have added up to 3 new outlets on a cicuit that has just one, usually able to run wires under the dinette seats or inside cabinets.

Exactly the way it was in my trailer, except it really was a single plug outlet they had the M/Wave plugged into. I replaced it with a duplex outlet that I plugged a powerstrip into. Giving me, mostly hidden up under there, a place to plug the coffee pot in.

Same thing I did, simple, cheap and works

[gmw_photos]

True enough that codes and standards tend to be written in ways that attempt to get things down to the lowest common denominator. Which is how we ended up with procedures like lockout/tag out at work. It added time and expense, but it's also true it's no doubt saved some lives.

My last boss at work before I retired had a masters in electrical engineering. How he ended up as a mid level manager over a machine shop and other tooling areas is a whole 'nuther story, but anyway, we had some interesting conversations about electrical stuff. He worked for Kansas City Power & Light for a number of years out of college. That stuff is some scary-azz business.

[BurbMan]

The NEC is there to establish standards that result in safe installations that won't electrocute us or burn down the structure.
In some cases it is overkill. Just because some folks don't understand the code doesn't mean it has no value.

By the way Bobbo, I did the same mod, I went with a Progressive Dynamics 3 way charger. Best mod you can make if you boondock and rely on a genny to recharge the batteries.

[Bobbo]

You have to take folks quoting standards with a grain of salt. Back in 2010, I upgraded the converter/charger in my RV from single stage to 4 stage. I also replaced the 8g wire between the converter/charger and the battery with 4g to reduce voltage loss. I actually had folks telling me that I had created a fire hazard because I had gone to 4g wire and still had the 45 amp breaker on there. They were telling me that code called for a different breaker.

[gmw_photos]

LVJJJ wrote:
I've always tied into the Microwave circuit for extra kitchen appliances like toaster and coffee maker. Since the MW dual outlet usually has the 2nd plug-in holes sealed over, I just drill out the plastic where the plug holes should be then plug in a power strip and run the cord down to under the upper cabinets so then I have several outlets to use. If too many appliances are plugged in so they trip the breaker, then just unplug one or two.

Long ago when I wired the houses I built, seems to me you could put 8 or 10 outlets on a 15 amp circuit with 14-2 wire. So I have added up to 3 new outlets on a cicuit that has just one, usually able to run wires under the dinette seats or inside cabinets.

Exactly the way it was in my trailer, except it really was a single plug outlet they had the M/Wave plugged into. I replaced it with a duplex outlet that I plugged a powerstrip into. Giving me, mostly hidden up under there, a place to plug the coffee pot in.

[BurbMan]

I'm with you GMW, I have done similar. It's a case of adding convenience not capacity.

[LVJJJ]

I've always tied into the Microwave circuit for extra kitchen appliances like toaster and coffee maker. Since the MW dual outlet usually has the 2nd plug-in holes sealed over, I just drill out the plastic where the plug holes should be then plug in a power strip and run the cord down to under the upper cabinets so then I have several outlets to use. If too many appliances are plugged in so they trip the breaker, then just unplug one or two.

Long ago when I wired the houses I built, seems to me you could put 8 or 10 outlets on a 15 amp circuit with 14-2 wire. So I have added up to 3 new outlets on a cicuit that has just one, usually able to run wires under the dinette seats or inside cabinets.

[gmw_photos]

Thanks for the explanation BurbMan.

The reason I added that last breaker was because it was the easiest way to provide power to a new outlet I wanted to add. I had relocated the television set and it's sat receiver to the opposite end of the trailer. As luck would have it, the wall where I put it coincidentally is right where the power center is. The install of the new outlet only required about 2' of wire to reach the new outlet.

In this trailer, over time, I have added four outlets, because what I did find is the stupidity/inconvenience of where the factory placed outlets.

Example is the outlet for the galley is on the vertical face of the galley counter top. Anything plugged into that outlet would have a wire draped over the edge of the counter. Meaning if I snagged that wire walking by, I may drag said appliance right over the edge.

And other such stupidity around the trailer. Like no outlet in the slideout, which has the dinette. I now have an outlet there so I can plug in the computer that lives on the table. Etc. All part of modding this thing to meet personal needs.

I'm mostly pretty minimal in my electrical use, partly because I travel solo, so for instance, no wife that needs to run a hair dryer, etc. Point being, a 30A center works fine for me.

[hilandfrog]

enblethen wrote:
hilandfrog:
Tha is not correct information as the OP has a 50 amp rig. He will have a main and some branch breakers. Normally three full size connections to each side of leg. he could then replace full size breakers on the branch circuits with twin breakers.

Thank you, I'd love the education if you could answer my mistakes correctly 🙂

I stated:

IF 5 circuits is the max for the power center... put in a sub panel ( so IF there were only 5 available whats preferred for adding more ? his pic looks to have 4 twins used with one ?? possible blank?? IF they were all used, and I still have needs, I don't believe I'll be overdrawn, would a sub panel be next in line... asking for a friend 🙂
What would you do... I'm almost done in my rebuild, added more circuits than needed, so I could shut down systems at will for power on a smallish generator, may not be THE way, but it's the way it is now. Would like 3 more circuits, box is full was planning on another box in the back?

I'll wager the # of circuits changes with amperage.... ( I was thinking a 30 amp would have X number and a 50 amp would add a few to X? is it just that more amps runs larger things not more of them ?)

Thanks for your time

-Repo

[BurbMan]

The panel can handle 9, but in an RV application the NEC limits you to 5. The way it was originally configured, the 3 twin breakers gives you a main and 5 branches. You added two so now you have 7 branches. The panel still has one slot left so you could another twin and have 9 branches.


I'm not sure what the reason is behind the NEC rule but I would have no issue adding additional circuits, but at some point it doesn't make sense when you onky have a total of 30 amps to work with. I added a new breaker to my panel just to I could take the converter off of the circuit I was adding the transfer switch and inverter to.

[gmw_photos]

ok, thanks gents. Upon closer examination of the sticker in the WFCO in this trailer, I see they state "max 9 branch circuits with use of duplex breakers".

I have (if I am looking at it right ) 7 now since I installed an extra duplex breaker. The way I read what they are saying there is the main is of course not a branch. So I could still add one more duplex breaker for a total of nine to be at max.

The one breaker that is off, I turned off as it goes to the water heater. I use propane to heat water, which is why I have that breaker switched off.

Again, mine is 30A, not 50A

[rhagfo]

westend wrote:

gmw photos wrote:

enblethen wrote:
hilandfrog:
Tha is not correct information as the OP has a 50 amp rig. He will have a main and some branch breakers. Normally three full size connections to each side of leg. he could then replace full size breakers on the branch circuits with twin breakers.

Allow me to show my ignorance of this subject. If a breaker is a "twin", does that define it as two branch circuits or one ?

Here is my 30A box. You can see the breaker I added at the bottom.

Each breaker above that is factory installed. How many branch circuits is this ?

A twin breaker in one slot is two branch circuits. A branch is described as an independent wire run to devices. I see you have 8 branch circuits.

As someone else remarked, adding a breaker would be best distribution if put on the opposite leg from the water heater. If a guy really wanted to achieve code compliance, add in a twin breaker and wire the new duplex receptacle with two branch circuits. This assumes the receptacle will be located in a kitchen area. I would use a twin 20 amp breaker and AWG 12 for this purpose.

Barney's installation of an exterior auxiliary power inlet is a good fix for those with 30 amp service. For those with 50 amp service, it probably won't be necessary.

With a 50 amp service it doesn’t really matter! Likely the AC is on the other leg, each leg can carry 50 amps at 110 volts.

[enblethen]

GMW photos:
Those are twin breakers.
Twin breakers provide two circuits per breaker assembly.
One of your breakers should be a main. The shore power line should connect to the screw terminal and feed the rest of the buss. You are allowed to have maximum six throws to disconnect power.
I see one breaker is off, it maybe a spare!

[westend]

gmw photos wrote:

enblethen wrote:
hilandfrog:
Tha is not correct information as the OP has a 50 amp rig. He will have a main and some branch breakers. Normally three full size connections to each side of leg. he could then replace full size breakers on the branch circuits with twin breakers.

Allow me to show my ignorance of this subject. If a breaker is a "twin", does that define it as two branch circuits or one ?

Here is my 30A box. You can see the breaker I added at the bottom.

Each breaker above that is factory installed. How many branch circuits is this ?

A twin breaker in one slot is two branch circuits. A branch is described as an independent wire run to devices. I see you have 8 branch circuits.

As someone else remarked, adding a breaker would be best distribution if put on the opposite leg from the water heater. If a guy really wanted to achieve code compliance, add in a twin breaker and wire the new duplex receptacle with two branch circuits. This assumes the receptacle will be located in a kitchen area. I would use a twin 20 amp breaker and AWG 12 for this purpose.

Barney's installation of an exterior auxiliary power inlet is a good fix for those with 30 amp service. For those with 50 amp service, it probably won't be necessary.