Please help with solar and electrical questions...

[Max-4]

Hello, first of all let me say a big thank you for reading my questions, I am new to RV'ing and im trying to pick things up quickly. My wife and I just put a downpayment on a brand new 2022 Forest River Salem FSX 177bh, we should take delivery of it in February or March of 2022. If I had to guess I could see my family using this trailer to do 70% plug in camping with full services and 30% off the grid boondocking. I do want the ability to use the trailer at National and Provincial parks (oh yeah im Canadian) where there likely wont be any water or electricity.

My dilemma is in regards to the fridge choices and solar packages that are available for this trailer. This Salem FSX comes with a new large ever-chill 11 cu ft 12v refrigerator standard. There is an option to go with a smaller 8 cu ft 3-way electric/propane fridge. With this option I would only have one group 24 battery that the trailer came with. I could also add another group 24 battery for a total of two but I would have no way of charging them once at campground. I do know the differences between these two fridges, I have been doing a bit of research.

My other option is to add the $850 solar package from the factory which includes a "Roof mounted 190 watt solar panel, 30 amp controller and battery". So am assuming this adds a second group 24 battery for a total of two after the one the trailer comes with. So I would have two group 24 batteries in my bank and the solar system to charge them. The dealer also recommended upgrading the two batteries to group 27 batteries at a cost of $280.

After reading a little bit it sounds like these new 12v refrigerators are pretty efficient and dont draw too much. I want the ability to go off grid for 48-72 hours and run the fridge as well as lights, stereo and charge devices. I understand this is dependant on sunshine and our usage but do you think its possible? the ad on ever-chills website said the fridge is sustainable with a 200 watt solar pannel and two batteries.

What would you guys recommend for my needs? I am kind of hoping that we can get by with the larger 12v fridge, solar package and two batteries in my bank. Thanks in advance for your time!!!

[pianotuna]

Max-4,

Here is a simple way to find out.

1. fully charge the battery bank on shore power.

2. Plug the RV into a kill-a-watt meter. Plug the meter into a 15 amp shore power circuit.

3. Leave the fridge and converter running for 4 days. Use the lights and other low loads as if you were dry camping.

4. Read the number of kilowatt hours used. That will be the consumption. Divide the number of watt-hours used by 2.

5. divide that number by 5.

That may be the minimum number of watts of solar necessary.

It also infers the size of the battery bank in watt-hours.

I would definitely spring for the dual battery bank feature. See if they can make it group 29 size?

[Thermoguy]

You do not need to have the largest generator if you are only plan to charge your batteries. You need a larger one if you want or need to run your A/C. I have a Champion generator that cost me around $500US dual fuel and it is more than enough to run the A/C while charging the batteries. I have never put gas in it, only run it off propane. Most places I boondock have no restrictions, but if anyone is near, I don't run it late at night or early in the AM. I usually only run it occasionally if it is really hot or if we want to watch a movie, the battery charging is a bonus.

When I got my 5th wheel it had 2 group 24 batteries. That served well until I needed new batteries. When I needed new batteries I went with the 6vGC batteries from Batteries plus Bulbs - around $300 for both. The 2 6V definitely last longer than the group 24. But it is what everyone has said, depends on how you use your batteries. When I dry camp, I think of it like tent camping. Only use the lights, power, etc when I really need them. If my wife would follow that we could go longer without charging. Can't tell you how many times I go inside the camper and a light is on. Anyway, we run out of water or waste storage before power.

Solar sounds great, but it's expensive, doesn't allow you to run your AC equipment like microwave and A/C, and doesn't charge well if you park under trees, and doesn't help if you use your heat and the solar system isn't large enough to recharge your batteries with the available sun the next day. If you have to have a generator for backup, skip the solar and just get a generator - unless you are a full timer or plan to spend weeks in the sun.

[Max-4]

Ok, so I just got off the phone with the dealer and cancelled my order for the $850 + solar package. I am going to keep the 11 cu ft 12v fridge option.

So now I just have the single 24v group 24 battery that the trailer comes with. I do see that there is a new feature of a "dual group 24 battery tray" so I could add another one and have two in my bank?

I do feel good about canceling my solar package order it allows me time to do some more research and see what my needs are for going off grid.

[StirCrazy]

Max-4 wrote:
Ok, so when you guys are talking about a pair of 6v golf cart batteries you are not talking about having them charged by solar power? These 6v golfcart batteries are charged using a generator or something and can power this 12v fridge and led lights for a few days?

I am looking at adding a $1000 option for the factory 190w solar panel and upgrading to two group 27 batteries.

If I am going to stick with the larger 12v fridge and not go with the smaller 3 way propane. What is my options for running this while boondocking and NOT using solar? Is this what you were talking about with the 6v golfcart batteries, how are these charged?

Am I better off to not spend $1000 extra and not have Forest River drill holes in my roof from the factory? I am all about maintaining and keeping this trailer leak free for as long as possible.

Are the portable solar panels a better option than a roof mounted one?

I am also a little confused at the responses that say buy a few 6v golf cart batteries from what I'm seeing they are $300 a piece and with the money left over buy a generator with an invertor to top them off??? A generator is anywhere from $1000 to $2000 here no problem. So I'm $1500 to $2000 into that option vs a $850 solar package from the factory? Thanks

yes my four 6V batteries are charged by solar evey day. I would skip the 190 watt solar panel and get something after and do it, I put an 325 watt system on my camper for under 600 cdn. mind you if you cant do the work then you might not have a choice. I would ask them if you bring your own equipment how much they would charge to install it. I know most dealers deal with go power and 99.9% of thoes are just PWM controlers, you want to make sure you get a MPPT controler and a 24V solar panel. my 325 watt system I put on the camper which is a 24v MPPT setup puts out more charging AH in a day than the 12V 480 watt PWM setup I have on my 5th wheel. it is getting upgraded.

the Problem with generators is now you are packing the generator, extra gass and so on.. but the biggest issue is up here places are realy restricting when you can use them.. most of the places I have been two have two hours in the morning and two hours in the evening, so not realy made for charging batteries but rather runing your microwave when making dinner or the coffee pot and such.. a properly sized battery bank is key and if you go solar that has to be sized right.

for myself I do 80% of my camping with no power so it would be a no prainer for me for a few reasons, a 8CUFT fridge will carry enough food for over a week and they just sip propane. but there are several people who do boondock with the 12V fridges and I think the keey there is your capacity of the battery bank. if your going to boon dock for 2 to 3 days size it for 5 to 6 days of usage so you dont deep discharge it all the time. the best thing would be to do a energy audit and see how many AH your going to use in one day then you know how big of a battery bank to get. if you get it big enough you dont need solar or a genny, but you have to be able to charge it up when you get home. the solar you are talking about would extend time so you can get away with say a 3 to 4 day battery bank and probably get 5 to 6 days depending on the amount of sun. a large solar set up could make it so your batteries juat have to be sized for a few days of no sun, but hardly get used when there is sun. or you can get a generator and make noise in the forest...

Steve

[Grit_dog]

Gjac wrote:
If you use the buddy heater correctly you won't have a problem. I use it to warm up the bathroom so wife can take a shower at night, and use it to take the chill of the MH in the morning I don't run it at night when we sleep even though it has a CO safety shut off. My 2 6vGC batteries last easily for a week and are at 50% SOC but generally out of water. What do you do for water after a week or more? My limiting factor has always been water never battery power?

And if you use the buddy heater enough in an enclosed area, you'll be able to wring out the curtains and towels that you wipe the condensation off the walls with, for a little extra water!

I use a buddy heater in our enclosed snomachine trailer to take the chill off or dry it out after riding. When running for extended time, if I don't keep a fan going with it, it makes water. And won't lie, it's been the only thing keeping me from either freezing to death or packing up and driving home on sub zero hunting trips. It did not get shut off when we went to sleep.

[jimh406]

Max-4 wrote:
Ok, so when you guys are talking about a pair of 6v golf cart batteries you are not talking about having them charged by solar power? These 6v golfcart batteries are charged using a generator or something and can power this 12v fridge and led lights for a few days?

Depending on how they are wired, 6V can produce 6V in parallel or 12V in series. Here is an example. https://youtu.be/vPc8TEBukys

Here’s another example.

https://www.atbatt.com/how-to-wire-6v-batteries-in-series-or-parallel-configuration/

[pianotuna]

Max-4,

Fixed flat install was and is my choice. Why do you think the factory can make a hole better? They are piece work driven.

[Max-4]

Ok, so when you guys are talking about a pair of 6v golf cart batteries you are not talking about having them charged by solar power? These 6v golfcart batteries are charged using a generator or something and can power this 12v fridge and led lights for a few days?

I am looking at adding a $1000 option for the factory 190w solar panel and upgrading to two group 27 batteries.

If I am going to stick with the larger 12v fridge and not go with the smaller 3 way propane. What is my options for running this while boondocking and NOT using solar? Is this what you were talking about with the 6v golfcart batteries, how are these charged?

Am I better off to not spend $1000 extra and not have Forest River drill holes in my roof from the factory? I am all about maintaining and keeping this trailer leak free for as long as possible.

Are the portable solar panels a better option than a roof mounted one?

I am also a little confused at the responses that say buy a few 6v golf cart batteries from what I'm seeing they are $300 a piece and with the money left over buy a generator with an invertor to top them off??? A generator is anywhere from $1000 to $2000 here no problem. So I'm $1500 to $2000 into that option vs a $850 solar package from the factory? Thanks

[StirCrazy]

Gjac wrote:

StirCrazy wrote:

Gjac wrote:

CavemanCharlie wrote:

Gjac wrote:
If you boondock 30% of the time I would stick to the el/propane refer forget the solar for now and get 2 6v GC batteries. You will have more than enough power for 3-5 days dry camping if you just camp in the NP's. If you have don't have to watch TV our play video games or use electric devices while dry camping. As a data point I dry camp only and in 7 days my 2 Sams club batteries are down to 50% SOC without solar or genset usage. .

I am just a weekend camper but, with my 2 6V GC batteries and Propane fridge I can go 4 days, easy! And have power left over. I changed all my lighting to LED's and I use the television for about 1 hour a day in the morning to watch the local news and weather. The furnace is the big power hog ! I just rarely use it. Sometimes I turn it on in the morning to take the chill off.

Since 2004 I only used the furnace maybe 6 times. In the fall I use a Buddy Heater and it uses no 12v power. I camp in the woods so solar would do little good, I have never needed to recharge with my genset in 7 days of dry camping and have never understood any of the solar or Li battery recommendations for week end campers. I understand many on here full time and others have much more electrical requirements than I do, but for people that just like to dry camp for a week without electronic devices 2 6VGC batteries are fine. I always run out of water before battery power.

most of us would never use a buddy heater in an enclosed space, not the safest thing to do. when they are working properly and you have a window cracked there ok, but as soon as somthing changes in them as they age they can throw a lot of co2.

so ya I camp a lot in the spring and fall when you need the heater, I also camp a lot in the forest and I still get enough light for the solar panels. I used to weekend camp ost of the time, and ya I still do.. in my old trailer I didnt have solar and I could go over night with the batteries that came from the rv place. as in one car type battery. so I went out and bought four 6V batteries and found in the summer I could go for over a week if I was carfull and winter I could do a long weekend, so when I got the 5th wheel I kept the same batteries and added a substantial amount of solar. now there is no limit in the summer and the same in the winter if it is sunny and depending on how cold and how much the furnace is running but generaly if its real coold I can go for a long weekend anyways. I find the older I get I do fewer but longer trips.

Steve

If you use the buddy heater correctly you won't have a problem. I use it to warm up the bathroom so wife can take a shower at night, and use it to take the chill of the MH in the morning I don't run it at night when we sleep even though it has a CO safety shut off. My 2 6vGC batteries last easily for a week and are at 50% SOC but generally out of water. What do you do for water after a week or more? My limiting factor has always been water never battery power?

ya water used to be an issue, and when I had 4 to 6 of us (kids are moved out now) water was a limiting factor. I had a old rv water tank that I built a bracket to sit in the back of the truck and a 12V transfer pump. so my trailer only had 32 gal of water and I could do a trip and almost fill it. other times we wouldent be in one spot for 2 weeks but we would move to a different site every 3 to 5 days and fill up and dump doring the moves. then I bought the 5th wheel which doubled my water and the two kids moved out or went to school, so the wife and I can easily go a week with out worring about water and two weeks if we conserve. I also take 5 gal jugs and bottled water for drinking on extended trips to conserve the tank water for dishes, cooking and bathroom stuff.

Steve

[JBarca]

Max-4 wrote:


How does my 10-year factory warranty on the rubber roof look after I start drilling holes through it?

Hi, on the boondocking part, we camp a lot under tree cover so I have not yet went solar. We use a Honda EU200I genny connected to a Progressive Dynamics PD9620C 60 amp power converter with 3 stage charging and disulfate mode. You need a good power converter that will kick into boost mode to get your lead acid battery bank from 50% up to 90% SOC in the limited time. Some camps limit genny run time. In our case, we have 5 to 6 hours only split up into 2 time periods per day. One in the morning and one in later afternoon.

I have 2 group 27 deep cycle lead acid batteries, (would go 6 volt golf cart next time) all LED lighting, LP on the fridge, water heater and furnace. We can go days, weeks or months if ever wanted. This all starts with being a power miser. We have done this for 12 years now and it just works. I agree on getting a good battery power meter. You can start with doing voltage checks, but counting coulombs with a Victron meter takes you to the next level. I'm still on voltage as I have learned to be enough of a power miser, that voltage gets me all I need. I rarely run down to 50% SOC on the battery and some days I do not run the genny. We charge laptops and phone during the genny run period. But can do it off the battery bank if needed.

Our inverter genny is quiet, has the forest spark arrester muffler system and the wife can run the hair dryer in the morning and use the microwave for dinner. Granted the hair dryer and the microwave make the genny kick into high, but it is low idle while charging the battery.

The above gets you into boondocking without a lot of technical issues to learn and work through. If after doing boondocking enough, and you want to take the jump to solar, then do it.

I agree not getting the factory install. And the comment about RV and lack of quality at the factory is dead on. There is a lot of info on solar out there if the day comes you want to do it.

Think it through, if you start with the genny setup, you lost nothing the day you jump to solar. Having a good inverter genny is a good bail out when solar does not work well enough pending conditions.

Now to the 10 year roof, a friendly heads up, then only thing that is 10 year warranted on your roof is the actual membrane against manufacturing defects on ether a TPO, PVC or EPDM roof. It is not a leak free warranty.

Look at all the holes the factory put in the membrane? The sealants around all those holes have is where 99% of the leaks come from short of a branch poking a hole in the roof etc. If the camper lives outside all the time and you are not up there 4 times a year looking at sealant cracks and recaulking them, or hiring someone to do it for you, come year 3, odds are favorable a leak can start. Sooner if the factory botched the caulking job which happens they way the rush through these units. Ask your dealer or better call the factory and ask what is exactly warranted for 10 years on the roof. And ask if you do not do the sealants inspection and recaulking from the day you take possession, is there any "leak" warranty.

Don't fear adding solar wires, learn how to maintain your roof without the solar, then add the solar when the time comes. I restore older campers, every one of them with roof leaks never came from the membranes leaking, it was always the sealants and the owners never knew enough how to deal with or even knew that had to deal with the roof sealants.

Good luck on on your new camper.

Hope this helps

John

[Gjac]

StirCrazy wrote:

Gjac wrote:

CavemanCharlie wrote:

Gjac wrote:
If you boondock 30% of the time I would stick to the el/propane refer forget the solar for now and get 2 6v GC batteries. You will have more than enough power for 3-5 days dry camping if you just camp in the NP's. If you have don't have to watch TV our play video games or use electric devices while dry camping. As a data point I dry camp only and in 7 days my 2 Sams club batteries are down to 50% SOC without solar or genset usage. .

I am just a weekend camper but, with my 2 6V GC batteries and Propane fridge I can go 4 days, easy! And have power left over. I changed all my lighting to LED's and I use the television for about 1 hour a day in the morning to watch the local news and weather. The furnace is the big power hog ! I just rarely use it. Sometimes I turn it on in the morning to take the chill off.

Since 2004 I only used the furnace maybe 6 times. In the fall I use a Buddy Heater and it uses no 12v power. I camp in the woods so solar would do little good, I have never needed to recharge with my genset in 7 days of dry camping and have never understood any of the solar or Li battery recommendations for week end campers. I understand many on here full time and others have much more electrical requirements than I do, but for people that just like to dry camp for a week without electronic devices 2 6VGC batteries are fine. I always run out of water before battery power.

most of us would never use a buddy heater in an enclosed space, not the safest thing to do. when they are working properly and you have a window cracked there ok, but as soon as somthing changes in them as they age they can throw a lot of co2.

so ya I camp a lot in the spring and fall when you need the heater, I also camp a lot in the forest and I still get enough light for the solar panels. I used to weekend camp ost of the time, and ya I still do.. in my old trailer I didnt have solar and I could go over night with the batteries that came from the rv place. as in one car type battery. so I went out and bought four 6V batteries and found in the summer I could go for over a week if I was carfull and winter I could do a long weekend, so when I got the 5th wheel I kept the same batteries and added a substantial amount of solar. now there is no limit in the summer and the same in the winter if it is sunny and depending on how cold and how much the furnace is running but generaly if its real coold I can go for a long weekend anyways. I find the older I get I do fewer but longer trips.

Steve

If you use the buddy heater correctly you won't have a problem. I use it to warm up the bathroom so wife can take a shower at night, and use it to take the chill of the MH in the morning I don't run it at night when we sleep even though it has a CO safety shut off. My 2 6vGC batteries last easily for a week and are at 50% SOC but generally out of water. What do you do for water after a week or more? My limiting factor has always been water never battery power?

[mobeewan]

Not a very practical test but thisVideo shows the refrigerator running on 1 battery for 40 hours. The test is conducted by putting a 24 bottle case of water in the refrigerator with nothing in the freezer. The door is never opened or closed during the entire test. I haven't been able to find any information regarding the power consumption in Watts or amps. There will probably need to be at least two batteries and probably more solar in order to keep the batteries up and run the refrigerator with other 12 volt demands.

[StirCrazy]

Gjac wrote:

CavemanCharlie wrote:

Gjac wrote:
If you boondock 30% of the time I would stick to the el/propane refer forget the solar for now and get 2 6v GC batteries. You will have more than enough power for 3-5 days dry camping if you just camp in the NP's. If you have don't have to watch TV our play video games or use electric devices while dry camping. As a data point I dry camp only and in 7 days my 2 Sams club batteries are down to 50% SOC without solar or genset usage. .

I am just a weekend camper but, with my 2 6V GC batteries and Propane fridge I can go 4 days, easy! And have power left over. I changed all my lighting to LED's and I use the television for about 1 hour a day in the morning to watch the local news and weather. The furnace is the big power hog ! I just rarely use it. Sometimes I turn it on in the morning to take the chill off.

Since 2004 I only used the furnace maybe 6 times. In the fall I use a Buddy Heater and it uses no 12v power. I camp in the woods so solar would do little good, I have never needed to recharge with my genset in 7 days of dry camping and have never understood any of the solar or Li battery recommendations for week end campers. I understand many on here full time and others have much more electrical requirements than I do, but for people that just like to dry camp for a week without electronic devices 2 6VGC batteries are fine. I always run out of water before battery power.

most of us would never use a buddy heater in an enclosed space, not the safest thing to do. when they are working properly and you have a window cracked there ok, but as soon as somthing changes in them as they age they can throw a lot of co2.

so ya I camp a lot in the spring and fall when you need the heater, I also camp a lot in the forest and I still get enough light for the solar panels. I used to weekend camp ost of the time, and ya I still do.. in my old trailer I didnt have solar and I could go over night with the batteries that came from the rv place. as in one car type battery. so I went out and bought four 6V batteries and found in the summer I could go for over a week if I was carfull and winter I could do a long weekend, so when I got the 5th wheel I kept the same batteries and added a substantial amount of solar. now there is no limit in the summer and the same in the winter if it is sunny and depending on how cold and how much the furnace is running but generaly if its real coold I can go for a long weekend anyways. I find the older I get I do fewer but longer trips.

Steve

[Gjac]

CavemanCharlie wrote:

Gjac wrote:
If you boondock 30% of the time I would stick to the el/propane refer forget the solar for now and get 2 6v GC batteries. You will have more than enough power for 3-5 days dry camping if you just camp in the NP's. If you have don't have to watch TV our play video games or use electric devices while dry camping. As a data point I dry camp only and in 7 days my 2 Sams club batteries are down to 50% SOC without solar or genset usage. .

I am just a weekend camper but, with my 2 6V GC batteries and Propane fridge I can go 4 days, easy! And have power left over. I changed all my lighting to LED's and I use the television for about 1 hour a day in the morning to watch the local news and weather. The furnace is the big power hog ! I just rarely use it. Sometimes I turn it on in the morning to take the chill off.

Since 2004 I only used the furnace maybe 6 times. In the fall I use a Buddy Heater and it uses no 12v power. I camp in the woods so solar would do little good, I have never needed to recharge with my genset in 7 days of dry camping and have never understood any of the solar or Li battery recommendations for week end campers. I understand many on here full time and others have much more electrical requirements than I do, but for people that just like to dry camp for a week without electronic devices 2 6VGC batteries are fine. I always run out of water before battery power.