Kayteg1 wrote:
Couple notes to reply above
-so called diesel heaters also have gasoline version. I am still considering separate tank for heater, who mounted in compartment will not be subject to gelled diesel in arctic temperatures.
- my 1000W inverter generator take a cup of gas per hr when on lower load. I never camp in temperatures below 0F, but had been in -25F and it was not fun. The Honda generator would not start in those temperatures.
So I think for such low temperatures, you need to keep generator in warm place and start it early in the evening to avoid bad surprises.
Those small generators also have small gas tanks, so making it extended run would be my priority.
Also at such low temperatures propane evaporation comes to drizzle and batteries start to choke.
Kayteg1 wrote:
I would also add that even when you start truck engine as emergency feature- diesel in negative temperatures will idle not reaching 80F, so not good for heating. I noticed truckers turn their lights on to put some load on the engine and get it warmer, but it all can go down very fast.
Gasoline engines should provide more heat, but I don't have such experience.
So again, IMHO the only thing that would be dependable is gasoline generator kept warm and started early. This way you can put electric heaters for overnight stay and try use propane furnace to get comfortable.
My Honda 3000 EU would run 6- 8 hr powering 3000W of heaters on its tank.
3000W electric heaters kept me semi-comfortable at 17F, so in negative temperatures they will not make camper cozy, but will allow you to stay alive till the morning.
Thanks for your notes. I will not be concerned about gelled diesel in northern Canada. Diesel is commonly used there and the diesel at the pump already includes all the additives to prevent gelling. I am curious to know whether diesel comes such additives anywhere in the US, specially in very cold states like North Dakota, Minnesota, Maine, ...
As for the generator, I will do it exactly as you described. I will keep it in a warm place and will put it out right before starting. In addition, I will use a vented cover (there are a few options in Amazon) that keeps the generator sufficiently warm while working. I will need to sometimes use the generator electricity for heating purposes, but don’t want to solely rely on that. Please read my response to Grit dog below.
If temperature gets very low, like -40 or below, propane tank needs to be somehow heated (maybe by adding a vent to the compartment, or using an electric warmer pad). But if I manage to find a viable alternative for propane furnace, I may not need to carry propane tanks. That’s assuming I will order the camper with compressor fridge, and will replace the propane stove with a diesel stove such as Wallas, which seem like a very good option as they can also perform as a heater, and they decrease condensation by drawing combustion air from inside the camper and exhausting it outside. This feature forces some fresh air into the cabin without cracking a window.
Grit dog wrote:
Stop for a minute and think about what you're trying to accomplish here.
It appears you understand the unique needs to be prepared to camp in sub zero temps, but you'll need to accept that whatever option(s) you choose, you'll need to burn some real fuel. Besides, it'll be dark most of the day so you're burning lights alot more too.
Packing 3 people in a can in the dead of winter and dealing with moisture and heat and running water is a unique challenge.
Look at your battery situation too. I'd be stacking 4 6Vs in that thing and a big @ss converter to charge them so that you don't need to run the genny 24/7. Then figure out how to heat the place with the least amount of fuel and power used.
Propane is not the answer. You'll probably blow through a 20lb bottle a day in those temps with a forced air furnace.
Gas powering a generator to power at least 2 electric heaters 24/7 (where do you even put them conveniently) is not the answer. Yes IF you have shore power, maybe, yes if it's for occasional use, yes if its warmer, but you don't have any of those things.
The answer is diesel, IMO. Packs the most btus per volume of common fuels.
Then figure out your water and tank heat situation.
Grit Dog, I agree with your points. Please see my response to Kayteg 1 above. The reason I calculated the amount of gasoline needed for the generator in my previous post, was to show the inefficiency of burning gasoline in a generator engine, and then inverting it (using generator inverter) to AC electricity, and then using electricity to turn on heaters, which brings us back to what you mentioned: the answer is {very likely to be} diesel.
As for the batteries, I will install at least four heated lithium batteries. Well-designed heated packages work at minus 40 (or even slightly below that).
towpro wrote:
As others have talked about, worry about the low temps.
Remember, a problem in those temps is no longer "just an inconvenience", it can quickly turn into matter of life and death.
Problems to expect:
Low battery capacity because of cold. maybe heat for one night on two 27 series batteries?
no solar charging
generators will not start.
moisture in propane tank can freeze and block lines (I had this happen in 25 deg with a 6mo with us. it was not fun.
propane might not convert from liquid to vapor and prevent heater from working
Thanks towpro! I have the experience of camping and mountaineering in altitude up to 18700 ft and absolutely agree that a problem in extreme cold will quickly turn into a matter of life or death. One approach to save life is to not have a plan b for continuing after encountering a problem (except for very minor problems). Plan b should always be to return immediately, and then there should be a plan c for returning just in case the plan b doesn’t work.
Kayteg1 wrote:
Espar hydronic heaters use the same burners that diesel air heaters do.
When hydronic heater can be also used for hot water - the heat exchanger triggers additional energy loss, when coolant pump draws additional current.
Hydronic heater are fantastic in terms of generating smooth heat, being silent, and providing abundant hot water. Their only drawback is that they are difficult to install. If I decide to go with hydronic heater, I will factor in the ease of installing it in my decision on which camper to buy.
ajriding wrote:
Kayteg1 wrote:
Couple notes to reply above
-so called diesel heaters also have gasoline version. .
Please note that they DO NOT have a gasoline option.
The chinese written ads DO say gasoline, but by "gasoline" they mean "fuel" which they really mean "diesel". Don't blow yourself up putting gasoline in a diesel heater just because their English is terrible.
Coleman has a dual fuel small gas camping stove that uses white gas and unleaded. The unleaded makes a mess and puts out a lot of soot and stinks. Based on my experience on that, even if there was a gasoline burning heater, I would not want to use it.
Diesel is about as volitle as cooking oil, very similar, but gasoline and gasoline fumes are extremely flamable.
Good to know about the potential misinformation about type of fuel. Did you personally receive, or know somebody who received, these so-called gasoline heaters?
Those Coleman dual fuel stoves do not work very well with unleaded gas from the pump. But Coleman has a product that is basically gasoline with some additives which works well with these stoves. Although a special fuel defeats the purpose of a dual fuel stove, which is supposed to be the ability to use a widely available fuel (gas) for most people.
