Removing Firestone Work rites and installing air bags..

[mooring_product]

After testing the Firestone Work rites I have decided they aren't for me or my set up.

I went with these over the Timbrens because of price and adjustable shims. They do what they were designed for but the ride suffered unloaded. If the camper lived on the truck I would recommend these.

Now, I'm a big hatter of air bags because of my old set up. I'm hopping I can get a set that don't bend brackets or leak air.

Ive decided on either the new Air Lift Load Lifter Ultimate with jounce bumper or the Hellwig bags. Both are priced at $400 for the pair.

I like the fact that the air lift can be run with little to no air. I like that Hellwig use larger bags that require less air to hold the same weight.

My truck is my DD. Ride comfort is top priority. My truck is level until my wife packs the camper. No sway.

My goal is to have a leveled truck loaded. Any feed back on either bag.

[mooring_product]

Im not worried about suspension travel...I have a Jeep for that.

[languiduck]

Yes I agree. I didn't mean it should be sitting on the bumpstops. The discussion started talking about changes and static height measured in inches, so I was trying to elude to the fact that when loaded the back will sit and inch or two lower, so the range of travel will shift.

[Reddog1]

languiduck wrote:
Lots of people around here seem to want their truck to remain at the same ride height when loaded up with 4000 lbs as it is empty. Hey guys, it's ok for a loaded pickup to sit lower when loaded. It's supposed to. Shoot, that's when it rides the best and will flex the most.

I've had my truck's axle hanging in the air several times. The axle wouldn't droop any further whether I had bags on it or not.

Well, I guess that depends on where you want your lights aimed, on the road or in oncoming drivers windshield or the trees.

I am not aware of anything that says it's supposed to sit lower when loaded. Each of us have our own opinions as to when a vehicle rides the best. Soft, mushy, side to side sway are all flexy. Not my idea of the best ride.

Wayne

[languiduck]

Lots of people around here seem to want their truck to remain at the same ride height when loaded up with 4000 lbs as it is empty. Hey guys, it's ok for a loaded pickup to sit lower when loaded. It's supposed to. Shoot, that's when it rides the best and will flex the most.

I've had my truck's axle hanging in the air several times. The axle wouldn't droop any further whether I had bags on it or not.

[AH64ID]

Are you planning to be looking for max wheel travel while loaded up?

Adding the air to the bags brings them back to near the unloaded rest position, so you potentially have the same travel with a greatly increased spring rate.
Basic static height only changes as much as you want it to.

Personally I like my rear axle to sit 1-1.5" lower loaded than empty, so that's how much air I put in my bags and the ride is great!!! That's the beauty of airbags, they aren't setup for only one load as they are adjustable to each and every load. If you need more than 5,000lbs of lift you are probably overloaded anyhow.

I am not sure my truck has ever been on a frame lift. I know I haven't done it, and I haven't seen anyone do it at any of the shops I have been to.

On my Tacoma the shocks held the axle at full droop, not the bags. I think that's hard on the shocks too, and personally don't like frame lifts for some of those reasons. They are super handy thou!!!

[HMS_Beagle]

I agree that 5 or 6" of dynamic travel is enough for normal roads (and said so above). The problem is that static height changes with load. On my F350 dually 5.4" from empty to laden at the rear axle, according to the Ford bodybuilders book (and my practical experience). That is pretty much the whole travel of your bag right there before dynamic suspension movement is considered. Set for middle of travel laden, they will be overextended empty; set for empty they will be smashed flat when only half laden. You can really only position them right for one load condition - unless they are allowed to float free on extension, like the Daystar product allows. Of course 100 PSI in them will lessen the compression when laden, but not that much.

Put your truck on a frame rack to change tires or oil, you will be at full droop both sides, hanging from the bags. Firestone says not to do that, then realizing that you have to, says its OK in an emergency as long as you deflate them completely.

[Bedlam]

Exactly as you described.

http://www.rambodybuilder.com/

[AH64ID]

There isn't 8" between the OEM bumpstops and the axle. The 8" figure would come from one side on the bumpstop and the other at full droop.

I can't open it on my iPad, but the ram bodybuilder website has a bunch of detail on the rear suspension.

[Bedlam]

I've been shopping flat beds and scouring upfitter information. You need 8" clearance between dually wheels and the deck. I would image it would be about the same on a SRW.

[languiduck]

HMS Beagle wrote:

AH64ID wrote:
The Ford bags must be different, the ones on my dodge have a bit more travel than that and do not limit travel. They are also mounted I board of the rings. 11" at the wheel will be quite a bit less at the bags/springs.

Firestone does not sell a convoluted bag for this market with more than about 6" travel. for example the 224C air spring recommended for all Ford Superduty kits is 2.80" compressed, 8.75" extended or 5.95" total travel. You can find the specs for all of their bags on their website. Maybe someone else does? Don't know how much travel your Dodge had/has but I bet it is more than that.

With a live rear axle, 11" at the wheel is 11" at the spring/bag.

Not likely you could get 11" of travel in a stock 3/4 ton truck. But mainly here, unless someone is baja'ing their truck, the rear axle isn't going to droop on both sides. So when only one wheel droops or compresses, the axle is at an angle so the springs and shocks don't move the same distance that the outside wheel does.

How many of you actually have the axle hanging in the air from jumping?

5-6" of travel is more than enough on a washboard road. Any more than that, and you either do your best or get a truck designed to handle that extreme terrain. I do quite a bit of rock crawling in my Jeep, not in my pickup.

It doesn't really matter how much the rear sags when loaded for the most part; because static ride height is static ride height. What's going to stop is shock travel and bump stops. You'll end up having more droop than compression, and it'll still be enough IMO.

[AH64ID]

HMS Beagle wrote:


With a live rear axle, 11" at the wheel is 11" at the spring/bag.

Good luck getting 11" of vertical travel out of both wheels at the same time, which is required on a live axle to make the spring and wheel travel the same amount.

I used to do a bit of 4wheeling and rock crawling and had some custom suspension setups on my rigs. I would get 19" of wheel travel, but only when one wheel was stuffed and one was drooped, the spring rate increases too much to get the full travel out of both tires in the same direction at the same time. Off road shock setups are also not designed around full compression or extension of both shocks at the same time, but articulation. I ran shocks with 12.875" of travel and my 19" of wheel travel was limited by the springs and not the shocks. A 6" bag will give more than 6" of useable travel in nearly all conditions. The bags used on the Dodges have just under 6" of travel, more than enough for the OEM suspension.

Spring rates on the lighter 3/4 Dodge pack are 2600 lb/in, your not going to get full travel on both sets at the same time without racing thru whoops.

The axle also rarely moves both tires at the same time when driving off road, usually one side moves more than the other.. this is why 6" of potential travel at the bag makes for a bit more than 6" at the wheel, keeping your traction and stability and not reducing useable travel.

About the only time one has to worry about airbags limiting travel with stock shocks and springs is when lifting the vehicle off the ground by the frame.

[HMS_Beagle]

AH64ID wrote:
The Ford bags must be different, the ones on my dodge have a bit more travel than that and do not limit travel. They are also mounted I board of the rings. 11" at the wheel will be quite a bit less at the bags/springs.

Firestone does not sell a convoluted bag for this market with more than about 6" travel. for example the 224C air spring recommended for all Ford Superduty kits is 2.80" compressed, 8.75" extended or 5.95" total travel. You can find the specs for all of their bags on their website. Maybe someone else does? Don't know how much travel your Dodge had/has but I bet it is more than that.

With a live rear axle, 11" at the wheel is 11" at the spring/bag.

[AH64ID]

The Ford bags must be different, the ones on my dodge have a bit more travel than that and do not limit travel. They are also mounted I board of the rings. 11" at the wheel will be quite a bit less at the bags/springs.

[HMS_Beagle]

AH64ID wrote:
Do you really think the airbags limit travel on a HD pickup?

Absolutely.

I measured the travel on my stock F350 at 11" if I remember right from bump stop to full droop. The Firestone airbags are about 5" from fully extended to bottomed. To make matters worse, from empty to camper loaded uses about 2 - 3" of travel. You can attempt to recover this by pumping the bags to 100 psi, or live with less jounce travel (or no rebound empty). When I put the Firestone under-the-frame kit on, empty jounce travel was reduced from about 5 inches to less than 2 (the bag replaced the bump stop).

In practice on the highway you don't often use more than 5" travel centered around the nominal height. But you will with a little off road work, and the nominal height changes with load if you are going to take advantage of the steel springs. There is no easy way to reset the bag height in any setup I have seen. On full droop the axle hangs from the bags (despite their warning not to do this), the shocks will not limit it for another 4" or more.

Those are the reasons the Daystar product looked attractive to me. You can set the height to work well for loaded, when unloaded they will lift off the perch and effectively remove themselves from operation without damage from overextension. I had devised such a setup when I installed my over-the-spring set (using a long bolt on the bag mount to allow it to lift off) but there isn't enough room under the perch to give much motion.

The Carli bags will not work on a stock ride height 2wd truck. I wish Firestone (or someone) would make the cone stye bags for light pickups. These can have a lot more travel than the convoluted bag typically used. The Firestone set I put on my Class A had 8" or more of useable travel, and that is wasted on a Class A.