SRW for pulling Fifth Wheel

[rb2boxer]

I am looking to buy a new truck because we intend to upgrade to a fifth wheel within the next few years. I have read a ton of articles and posts saying that a dually is better and the truck to have. Problem is that I dont really want a dually, we pull maybe 10 times a year for weekends and family vacations, etc. The SRW is a much better daily option for us

I am looking at a chevy or gmc 3500 crew cab diesel with the standard bed. I would really love to hear from people with the similar truck pulling fifth wheels....any issues?

I would make sure whatever fifth wheel I bought matched the specs of the truck. The one we are thinking of grosses at 15K and a pin weight of 2500#

Thanks in advance!

[Hannibal]

ShinerBock wrote:

Hannibal wrote:

ShinerBock wrote:

Stock 2003 Cummins made 235 hp if it was an auto and 305 hp if it was a manual HO. The 5.4L in the Super Duty made 300 hp at 5,000 rpm. 3800-4200 is more than the 30% higher rpm you stated earlier. Lastly, I have towed 5-7k with a 5.4L SD and I don't remember it ever being below 4500 up hills. Maybe on flat ground, but not on hills.

The 235hp was California. Mine was 250hp. That was peaked at 2900rpm where it was starting to run out of breath. The 310hp 5.4L makes 287hp at 4200rpm. That's right at peak torque rpm where it's just starting to come alive. The 2010 lowly 5.4L out tows the 2003 SO Cummins.

Again, the math of your 30% more rpm statement does not add up. The 3800-4200 you posted is more than 30% above the diesel. This is going by your own statements. Peak horsepower of the 300 hp version of the 5.4L in the SD was at 5,000 rpm and peak torque was at 3,750 rpm, not 4,200.

If the 250hp Cummins needed to run 2900rpm up a grade and the 5.4L runs 3800rpm up the grade, same load and speed, that's 30% higher rpm.

[Mickeyfan0805]

Walaby wrote:
I believe the reason many people recommend using GVWR to ensure one has adequate capacity with their TV, is it would represent the potential worse case weight of the trailer, when loaded.

I get the 'first glance' usage of GVWR for evaluating a trailer, but to me, the danger of this advice is that the GVWR of the trailer does NOT represent the worst case scenario. The GVWR of a trailer indicates how much load that trailer is able to carry - it has nothing to do with how much a person will actually put in! The vast majority of RV owners are going to load what they are going to load - with no consideration of weight.

The person who has 10,000 of free capacity to tow a trailer, who then buys a 9,000 pound 'dry' trailer is going to be the same weight, in the end, regardless of whether that trailer has a GVWR of 9,500 or 12,000. In this case, they may pull out at 10k, within the ratings of the truck, but OVER the ratings of the trailer if they buy the lower GVWR vehicle. This makes them significantly less safe than buying the rig that has a GVWR over their capacity.

I just think it points people in a false direction of thinking that GVWR on a trailer will somehow impact it's final weight. There are trailers out there with cargo capacities under 500 pounds. Those people may have a trailer with a GVWR that fits within their specs, but most of them have well exceeded that GVWR on the trailer anyway.

[JTrac]

Me Again wrote:

JTrac wrote:
When I shop for a truck the first thing I do is look at the little yellow sticker usually located on the door pillar on the driver's side. It will tell you how much cargo capacity there is for that particular truck. I was really hoping to get a srw last time around but most of the Ford diesel srw's in a King Ranch or Platinum had around 3200 pounds of capacity. The loaded hitch weight of our fifth wheel is 3100 pounds. Add the hitch at 180, us at 300, our 25 gallon auxiliary tank at about 240, filled, the 2 Boston Terrors at about 50 plus food and drinks for the day and we are suddenly bumping 4000. I could have gotten a different truck with less options to reduce the weight but not what we wanted. The dually has almost 5300 pounds of capacity.

I know most will tell you how much more stable, etc. a dually is when towing but honestly I cannot tell that much difference. We have owned several srw's in the past so I have experience with both. Our last srw, which towed our current trailer, had great road manners but we did experience a lot of chucking, probably because I had too much weight on it. That went away with the dually.

That little yellow sticker is a manufacturer's number based on GVWR minus weight of the truck's build. These have nothing to do with the federal bridge weight laws which the states enforce. Wadcutter who was a weight enforcement officer for years has explained this many times. Look at the GAWRings and do not exceed them. If your state licenses tonnage, be sure to purchase enough to cover your load. Chris

Maybe I should have gone further and said that after I determine the truck will carry the weight I put on it then I look at all the other ratings. My only point was this helps me eliminate trucks that won't work so I can move on to the next one. In our state, tonnage or whatever is not a consideration in licensing a pick up for private use. After the fact, I should have known better than to make a comment in weight thread.

[ShinerBock]

Hannibal wrote:

ShinerBock wrote:

Stock 2003 Cummins made 235 hp if it was an auto and 305 hp if it was a manual HO. The 5.4L in the Super Duty made 300 hp at 5,000 rpm. 3800-4200 is more than the 30% higher rpm you stated earlier. Lastly, I have towed 5-7k with a 5.4L SD and I don't remember it ever being below 4500 up hills. Maybe on flat ground, but not on hills.

The 235hp was California. Mine was 250hp. That was peaked at 2900rpm where it was starting to run out of breath. The 310hp 5.4L makes 287hp at 4200rpm. That's right at peak torque rpm where it's just starting to come alive. The 2010 lowly 5.4L out tows the 2003 SO Cummins.

Again, the math of your 30% more rpm statement does not add up. The 3800-4200 you posted is more than 30% above the diesel. This is going by your own statements. Peak horsepower of the 300 hp version of the 5.4L in the SD was at 5,000 rpm and peak torque was at 3,750 rpm, not 4,200.

[Durb]

Wadcutter wrote:

Durb wrote:

Can't see how these numbers add up. My truck has a gross combined capacity of 21,000 pounds. Since it weighs 8,000 pounds ready to tow it limits me to a 13,000 pound fifth wheel. Currently, a 40 ft. Big Country has a GVWR of 16k which would mean your F350 4X4 loaded up and ready to tow weighs around 5,000 pounds. I am glad you have towed it all over the country without incident. The numbers just don't appear realistic for the OP.

The numbers don't add to you because you're using GVWR. You must not understand what GVWR means. GRWR does not mean that's what the Big Country actually weighs. Gross Vehicle Weight Rating. Not actual weight of the rig. "Capacity" is not the same as actual weight.
And yeah, the number I gave are actual weights. I use to be the commander of one of the state scales and I weighed my rig a number of times when it was loaded various ways.
I do know what the weight ratings mean and the difference between "actual" weight and "capacity". I taught truck weigh laws for a lot of years, weighed a lot of trucks over the years, and was testified as expert witness in a number of cases involving truck weights.
You have to know what the terms mean if you're going to understand what they mean.

I know what gross vehicle weight ratings mean and I can do math. Assuming your F350 4X4 ready to tow weighs 8,000 pounds, which is realistic, then your 40 ft. Big Country loaded for travel weighs 12,000# when you scaled at 20,000#, 13,000# when you scaled at 21,000#. This is pretty hard to believe since the dry weight of a current 40 ft. Heartland is 13,420 pounds. Add a half of tank of water and a thousand pounds of gear (as you posted) and your trailer magically lost weight. I wouldn't want you testifying for me.

[Bedlam]

ACZL wrote:

memtb wrote:
If the truck will be “dedicated” for towing....then a DRW would be very desirable. However....there are many reasons to consider a SRW. In our case, it’s a year round, do it all truck! It will be used in ice/snow/mud, hunting on narrow “ two-track” roads/trails, and the usual daily uses. For us the SRW is “handsdown” more desirable!

Our 5er is over 20K pounds....and we do fine! However, modifications (Ricksen 19.5” wheels with Hankook “H” rated tires) have been made to the truck, and the 5er has a good suspension (MorRyde) and hydraulic disc brakes, and 3 axles (17.5” wheels/tires)

It come down to how the truck is to be used the majority of the time.....and how much money, you’re willing to spend to make the SRW a reliable/safe tow vehicle for a heavy trailer!

If I'm reading this right, your stating that your RV alone weighs 20k and pulling it w/ a srw? If my fuzzy math is right too, 20,000 x 25% = 5,000 pin weight. If so, God bless you for you have bigger kahoonies than me.

Going to commercial rated tires and rims does allow considerable capacity for a SRW and extra durability (longevity and puncture resistance) at the cost of ride comfort and lack of tire flotation in deep snow or soft sand. I easily put on 30K miles with 7000-8000 lbs on my F250's rear axle without any reliability or handling problems and fully expected the tires to age out before they would wear out. My 5500 has the same type of tire and has almost 40K miles on them with a healthy amount of tread left I doubt I will be able wear away before I replace the tires due to age.

I did have to upgrade the F250 suspension to control this heavier payload, but I had the footprint of a short bed extended cab SRW with the ride quality of a F350 DRW.

[Hannibal]

ShinerBock wrote:

Stock 2003 Cummins made 235 hp if it was an auto and 305 hp if it was a manual HO. The 5.4L in the Super Duty made 300 hp at 5,000 rpm. 3800-4200 is more than the 30% higher rpm you stated earlier. Lastly, I have towed 5-7k with a 5.4L SD and I don't remember it ever being below 4500 up hills. Maybe on flat ground, but not on hills.

The 235hp was California. Mine was 250hp. That was peaked at 2900rpm where it was starting to run out of breath. The 310hp 5.4L makes 287hp at 4200rpm. That's right at peak torque rpm where it's just starting to come alive. The 2010 lowly 5.4L out tows the 2003 SO Cummins.

[memtb]

ACZL, pin weight is north ( for sure) of 4K pounds!

[Me_Again]

JTrac wrote:
When I shop for a truck the first thing I do is look at the little yellow sticker usually located on the door pillar on the driver's side. It will tell you how much cargo capacity there is for that particular truck. I was really hoping to get a srw last time around but most of the Ford diesel srw's in a King Ranch or Platinum had around 3200 pounds of capacity. The loaded hitch weight of our fifth wheel is 3100 pounds. Add the hitch at 180, us at 300, our 25 gallon auxiliary tank at about 240, filled, the 2 Boston Terrors at about 50 plus food and drinks for the day and we are suddenly bumping 4000. I could have gotten a different truck with less options to reduce the weight but not what we wanted. The dually has almost 5300 pounds of capacity.

I know most will tell you how much more stable, etc. a dually is when towing but honestly I cannot tell that much difference. We have owned several srw's in the past so I have experience with both. Our last srw, which towed our current trailer, had great road manners but we did experience a lot of chucking, probably because I had too much weight on it. That went away with the dually.

That little yellow sticker is a manufacturer's number based on GVWR minus weight of the truck's build. These have nothing to do with the federal bridge weight laws which the states enforce. Wadcutter who was a weight enforcement officer for years has explained this many times. Look at the GAWRings and do not exceed them. If your state licenses tonnage, be sure to purchase enough to cover your load. Chris

[JTrac]

When I shop for a truck the first thing I do is look at the little yellow sticker usually located on the door pillar on the driver's side. It will tell you how much cargo capacity there is for that particular truck. I was really hoping to get a srw last time around but most of the Ford diesel srw's in a King Ranch or Platinum had around 3200 pounds of capacity. The loaded hitch weight of our fifth wheel is 3100 pounds. Add the hitch at 180, us at 300, our 25 gallon auxiliary tank at about 240, filled, the 2 Boston Terrors at about 50 plus food and drinks for the day and we are suddenly bumping 4000. I could have gotten a different truck with less options to reduce the weight but not what we wanted. The dually has almost 5300 pounds of capacity.

I know most will tell you how much more stable, etc. a dually is when towing but honestly I cannot tell that much difference. We have owned several srw's in the past so I have experience with both. Our last srw, which towed our current trailer, had great road manners but we did experience a lot of chucking, probably because I had too much weight on it. That went away with the dually.

[ShinerBock]

Hannibal wrote:

ShinerBock wrote:

Hannibal wrote:

ShinerBock wrote:


Never said your truck wasn't capable and this it cannot do it......eventually. I just said that the statement you made that your 5.4L SD will tow what a diesel can tow at only 30% more is a load of crock.

Eventually? We run the same speeds in every situation we ran with our diesels. Sometimes faster. My '95 Cummins was only 160hp. I now have twice the hp. The day 310hp isn't enough to tow an 8500 lb trailer is the day I'll give it up.

Are you seriously comparing a 2010 gaser to a 1995 diesel and figuring it is the same with today's diesels?

Also, you may have twice the hp at peak, but you don't at an rpm 30% greater than what your old diesel made its 160 hp . Your old 95 diesel made 160 hp at 2,500. Your 2010 makes 310 at 5,000 rpm. 30% over 2,500 is 3,250 and doubt you are even making 225 hp at 3,250 rpm.

Again, I am not saying you truck won't pull it . I am just saying that it will take more than the 30% higher rpm that you stated.

It's not all about how much peak hp the engines have or had, but how much hp is needed to do the job. I had three more Cummins Rams after the '95. Where the '03 250hp Cummins needed it's governed 250hp peak to do the job, the 5.7 Hemi and now the 5.4 Ford do it at 3800-4200.

Stock 2003 Cummins made 235 hp if it was an auto and 305 hp if it was a manual HO. The 5.4L in the Super Duty made 300 hp at 5,000 rpm. 3800-4200 is more than the 30% higher rpm you stated earlier. Lastly, I have towed 5-7k with a 5.4L SD and I don't remember it ever being below 4500 up hills. Maybe on flat ground, but not on hills.

[ACZL]

memtb wrote:
If the truck will be “dedicated” for towing....then a DRW would be very desirable. However....there are many reasons to consider a SRW. In our case, it’s a year round, do it all truck! It will be used in ice/snow/mud, hunting on narrow “ two-track” roads/trails, and the usual daily uses. For us the SRW is “handsdown” more desirable!

Our 5er is over 20K pounds....and we do fine! However, modifications (Ricksen 19.5” wheels with Hankook “H” rated tires) have been made to the truck, and the 5er has a good suspension (MorRyde) and hydraulic disc brakes, and 3 axles (17.5” wheels/tires)

It come down to how the truck is to be used the majority of the time.....and how much money, you’re willing to spend to make the SRW a reliable/safe tow vehicle for a heavy trailer!

If I'm reading this right, your stating that your RV alone weighs 20k and pulling it w/ a srw? If my fuzzy math is right too, 20,000 x 25% = 5,000 pin weight. If so, God bless you for you have bigger kahoonies than me.

[Hannibal]

ShinerBock wrote:

Hannibal wrote:

ShinerBock wrote:


Never said your truck wasn't capable and this it cannot do it......eventually. I just said that the statement you made that your 5.4L SD will tow what a diesel can tow at only 30% more is a load of crock.

Eventually? We run the same speeds in every situation we ran with our diesels. Sometimes faster. My '95 Cummins was only 160hp. I now have twice the hp. The day 310hp isn't enough to tow an 8500 lb trailer is the day I'll give it up.

Are you seriously comparing a 2010 gaser to a 1995 diesel and figuring it is the same with today's diesels?

Also, you may have twice the hp at peak, but you don't at an rpm 30% greater than what your old diesel made its 160 hp . Your old 95 diesel made 160 hp at 2,500. Your 2010 makes 310 at 5,000 rpm. 30% over 2,500 is 3,250 and doubt you are even making 225 hp at 3,250 rpm.

Again, I am not saying you truck won't pull it . I am just saying that it will take more than the 30% higher rpm that you stated.

It's not all about how much peak hp the engines have or had, but how much hp is needed to do the job. I had three more Cummins Rams after the '95. Where the '03 250hp Cummins needed it's governed 250hp peak to do the job, the 5.7 Hemi and now the 5.4 Ford do it at 3800-4200.

[memtb]

If the truck will be “dedicated” for towing....then a DRW would be very desirable. However....there are many reasons to consider a SRW. In our case, it’s a year round, do it all truck! It will be used in ice/snow/mud, hunting on narrow “ two-track” roads/trails, and the usual daily uses. For us the SRW is “handsdown” more desirable!

Our 5er is over 20K pounds....and we do fine! However, modifications (Ricksen 19.5” wheels with Hankook “H” rated tires) have been made to the truck, and the 5er has a good suspension (MorRyde) and hydraulic disc brakes, and 3 axles (17.5” wheels/tires)

It come down to how the truck is to be used the majority of the time.....and how much money, you’re willing to spend to make the SRW a reliable/safe tow vehicle for a heavy trailer!

[ShinerBock]

Hannibal wrote:

ShinerBock wrote:


Never said your truck wasn't capable and this it cannot do it......eventually. I just said that the statement you made that your 5.4L SD will tow what a diesel can tow at only 30% more is a load of crock.

Eventually? We run the same speeds in every situation we ran with our diesels. Sometimes faster. My '95 Cummins was only 160hp. I now have twice the hp. The day 310hp isn't enough to tow an 8500 lb trailer is the day I'll give it up.

Are you seriously comparing a 2010 gaser to a 1995 diesel and figuring it is the same with today's diesels?

Also, you may have twice the hp at peak, but you don't at an rpm 30% greater than what your old diesel made its 160 hp . Your old 95 diesel made 160 hp at 2,500. Your 2010 makes 300 at 5,000 rpm. 30% over 2,500 is 3,250 and doubt you are even making 225 hp at 3,250 rpm.

Again, I am not saying your truck won't pull it . I am just saying that it will take more than the 30% higher rpm that you stated.