Time to simplify -- fiver to TT. Do I need WD?

[DazedNConfused]

Currently have a 40ft 5th wheel that we put a fully season of camping into. Our first big trailer...and it helped us figure out the NEED to haves vs. the NICE to haves. Example...bath and a half is NICE..but we only NEED one bath. Dedicated bunkhouse for my kids is NICE, but they really only NEED a place to sleep. Tons of inside storage is NICE, but we find we're packing rolls of paper towels and such around our stuff so it doesn't move around while travelling (unit has a monster pantry!) because we don't fill it up.

I'm also tired of washing/cleaning 40ft of camper, having difficulty getting in and out of some tighter campsites, and having to deal with 5 storage tanks and three slides. Great if we're staying put for a while...but we are weekend warriors and do 4-day trips.

So I'm looking to downsize to an under 30' TT. I'd prefer 26' or less, bunks for the kids, and have taken a liking to units like the Rockwood Mini 2504s with a murphy bed that gives us a couch during the day, single slide, 26', etc. Plenty for the 4 day trips we do. Will miss the outside kitchen...but oh well.

I'm trying to figure out what is reasonable for my truck. It's 2012 F-250 diesel which is more than up for the task of any TT we're looking at, of course. Something would further simplify things further would be the novelty of not having to deal with a weight distributing hitch. My tow bar is of the beefy 2.5" variety. Any rules of thumb out there on how much I can realistically load on the back of the truck without WD? The novelty of dropping on the ball of the truck and using a drill to bring up the manual stabilizer jacks should take all of a few minutes and would be nice.

Dry hitch weight on the 2504S is 480lbs. So maybe I'll be around 600 when we're loaded up? GVWR of that trailer is 6,200 lbs, but based on the results from weighing my current setup, we won't use all of the payload capacity available in teh camper -- so expect to land around 5,500 - 5,750 lbs -- half the weight we town now with the fiver.

So what are the rules of thumb for towing with and without WD? Truck already has airbags, btw.

Thanks in advance.

[wmoses]

DazedNConfused wrote:
Thank you, everyone. Lots of good information in here -- and lots of conflicting information as well. 🙂
....
The truck is a monster -- and way overkill for the small TTs that I'm looking at. I have an E-rated setup for wheels and tires -- and the gross alxe weight rating is well over 6,000 lbs. I would run out of payload long before I ran out of what the rear of the truck can handle. But...I've never hooked anything up to the bumper of this truck save for a small trailer with a motorcycle -- and of course the truck just laughed at that load. 🙂 So I really have zero point of reference here wrt TTs...but know lots about the fiver setups. 🙂

Thanks again.

I understand both points above completely. When one comes on these forums (and on the Internet in general) one should only expect to get a wide variation in information quality, and that is because of the anonymous nature of the Internet - starting with, for example, avatars / aliases / fake names and all the other things that people hide behind but nevertheless have no fear to speak out. Note to all: There are two "Wayne" contributors to this thread.

On the topic at hand, and as I said in my only contribution (I think I only made one) - WD on a smaller TT should not be an issue for your truck, but sway can even if you have the right fore-aft weight balance. That is why I am saying that you need anti sway equipment, and for the larger travel trailers friction type anti sway bars are not as popular as WDHs with anti-sway built in. As a benefit in your case, the WD feature will put back the weight loss from the front wheels due to the pivoting about the rear axle as the tongue load is applied on the hitch.

[AH64ID]

TomG2 wrote:

ah64id wrote:


snip...

TomG2 wrote:
GM does no "require" a WD hitch with the 2500HD under most conditions, and neither do I.

They may not "require" it, but they do recommend it above 5,000lbs.

I have read through the owner's manual on my 2013 2500HD pickup and cannot find the wording that you quote. You must be looking elsewhere, or making it up?

How much easier is it to ask for a reference than to ASSume a liar..

I also didn't quote any wording, I copied your quoted require. Words mean things....

Page 4. Note 2 says not required for 2500HD and 3500HD. Still listed under typical hitch for 5,001+ lbs. I would call that recommended, but maybe you read it different (somehow based on your attitude I have a feeling you will).

http://www.chevrolet.com/content/dam/Chevrolet/northamerica/usa/nscwebsite/en/Home/Vehicles/Trucks%20and%20Vans/2014_Express/Model_Overview/02_pdfs/MY14%20Trailering%20Guide_1113.13.pdf

I also cannot find anywhere that they do require it on a 2500HD, do you have a reference for the other conditions that require it?

[TomG2]

ah64id wrote:


snip...

TomG2 wrote:
GM does no "require" a WD hitch with the 2500HD under most conditions, and neither do I.

They may not "require" it, but they do recommend it above 5,000lbs.

I have read through the owner's manual on my 2013 2500HD pickup and cannot find the wording that you quote. You must be looking elsewhere, or making it up?

[AH64ID]

Gdetrailer wrote:


WD DOES NOT CONTROL ANYTHING during an emergency maneuver, PERIOD.

You are going to have to explain that one.

Emergency braking is one of the few times, on a properly setup brake controller/trailer brakes, that the TV has a lot of braking power prior to the trailer. That action really increases tongue weight, which decreases FAW and front axle steering and braking ability.

If you have a WDH the dip in the rear suspension will increase the tension and weight transfer, reducing the negative effect on the front axle.

Without one you stand a better chance of the trailer push/pulling you around as the brakes take hold on the TT.

Gdetrailer wrote:
For your information pickup trucks already have MORE weight on the front axle than they do on the rear axle.

In the case of the OPs situation he has even MORE weight on the front axle since it is a DIESEL.

Empty yes, but it doesn't always stay that way. I have never had my FAW be heavier than my RAW once the TT is hooked up (about a 1400lb difference empty). That includes an empty bed and a WDH that puts about 50-60% back on the front.

While manufacturers don't recommend 100% anymore there is still a big benefit to putting it back. Headlights, steering linkage, and brakes are all geared around a specific weight and getting too light effects all of them, especially if you have to slam on the brakes.

Gdetrailer wrote:
Put it this way, if a 3/4 ton pickup can not handle 1000 lbs on the hitch then how do you explain the fact that he was able to tow a 40' 5vr which most likely had a pin weight in excess of 2000 lbs?

1,000lbs several feet behind the axle has a far different effect than 2,000lbs several inches foreword of the rear axle. One decreases front axle weight and one doesn't. One has a big effect on rear and front axle loading driving on an uneven road and one does not.

On my setup my ball/WDH leverage points are 5.5' behind the rear axle, that is a TON of leverage removing weight from the front. There is very little weight in front of the front axle.

I have towed a trailer, non WDH, with about 2K lbs 5' behind the rear axle and I have put 4K lbs in the bed. One made the truck handle different and one did not, can you guess which way?

4K lbs in the bed is easier to handle that 2K behind the bumper, always will be.

This is why there are TW limits of 1,700 and 5er pin weight limits of 5,000 and GN limits of 6,000 on the new Ram pickups.

Gdetrailer wrote:
Using your theory I should not be able to put 2000 lbs plus load in the back of my truck with putting some sort of helper axle and wheels to drag behind my axle..

Same as above, the placement of cargo has different effects on where the weight sits.

Look at the mega cab dodges, ever wonder whey they aren't recommended for slide in campers, or have lower GVWR's for the same setup/wheelbase as a QC LB?? It's about weight placement relative to the axles.

Gdetrailer wrote:
A PROPERLY LOADED AND BALANCED bumper pull trailer WILL NOT SWAY. That is where you SHOULD BE STARTING AT.

Agree completely.

Gdetrailer wrote:
What are YOU going to do when your WD BREAKS during an emergency maneuver?

Is this common? Or is it an issue of undersized WHD setups?

I don't know, serious question.

Gdetrailer wrote:
First rule is to BUY THE PROPER VEHICLE FOR THE LOAD.

Second rule is to PROPERLY BALANCE the trailer.

THIRD rule is to reread the first rule..

Forth rule is once you have got the first three rules right then apply WD and or anti-sway devices.
Fifth rule is to never, ever bet you life on WD or anti-sway devices to make up for ignoring the first three rules since they can break when you need them the most.

I agree completely on having the proper setup being properly loaded, but I don't agree on emergency stopping or your theory on loading. 1K lbs make a big difference on where it sits.

TomG2 wrote:
GM does no "require" a WD hitch with the 2500HD under most conditions, and neither do I.

They may not "require" it, but they do recommend it above 5,000lbs.

[TomG2]

Wayne, you seem to like to compare apples to oranges (as many do on here).

Your earlier post quoted below showed that you went from a tow vehicle rated to tow 6,500 pounds to one rated at 10,000 pounds. I think that is what contributed to your safety and well being as much as a $80 sway bar. Comparing vehicles that are twelve or more years different in age doesn't prove much. I like the safety and security that my 2013 2500HD gives me, without any supplemental controls.

Here it is:

" snip.........Plus, the new 5.3 has a lot more HP and torque than the 6.0 in my old truck. Old truck was rated to tow 6500 pounds, new truck rated to tow 10,000. (In the real world, the limiting factor on the new truck seems to be hitch weight/carrying capacity, not tow capacity.) Wayne"

[Empty_Nest__Soo]

TomG2 wrote:
The Pioneer made the 2500HD sway, but the addition of a single sway bar made it comfortable and safe with a 1500? You must have had a bad 2500HD as there is no comparison to the stability improvement when I went from a 1500 with all the gadgets to a 2500HD without. GM does no "require" a WD hitch with the 2500HD under most conditions, and neither do I.

My first trip towing the Pioneer with the 2500HD I could feel significant buffeting from the big trucks, etc. I then spent the extra $80 or so for a friction sway control bar. I towed it for another 8 years with the 2500HD and the friction sway control had a noticeable effect on eliminating the buffeting from the big trucks. I considered it $80 well spent.

I've only had the new truck since the summer of 2011.

Life is full of choices. I preferred the extra margin of safety and comfort from the WD hitch and sway control, even with the 2500HD.

Wayne

[DazedNConfused]

Just in case anyone wants to see my current setup: 🙂

Can't seem to get pics to post...I give up.

[DazedNConfused]

Thank you, everyone. Lots of good information in here -- and lots of conflicting information as well. 🙂

It may simply take picking my trailer, loading it up with gear, food, clothes, etc., and taking it out for a shake-down trip -- and just giving it a shot without WD. Our shake-down would be within 60miles from home...and have some interestate between here and there. Should show me very quickly how the setup handles.

My current 5th wheel is about 11,250lbs fully loaded for a trip. With our setup, that puts me at over 2,000lbs of pin weight. The F-250 lacks that extra leaf that the 350 has, but I went with it because of insurance reasons which, at the time of purchase, would have forced the 1-ton truck into a commercial policy at an extra $900 insurance per year -- but that's a whole other topic.

The scales show my truck at roughly 5,000 lbs on the front axle and 3,500 on the rear -- but that's with my 300lb 5th wheel hitch setup in the back and my family of 4 in the truck -- so reality is about 3,000 over the rear axle.

I get about 2" of squat when I load my fiver...and use the air bags to level the truck back out. I could always add the extra leaf or better yet, go with a SuperSpring setup to maintain ride quality without towing, and should prety well eliminate squat with a small TT.

The truck is a monster -- and way overkill for the small TTs that I'm looking at. I have an E-rated setup for wheels and tires -- and the gross alxe weight rating is well over 6,000 lbs. I would run out of payload long before I ran out of what the rear of the truck can handle. But...I've never hooked anything up to the bumper of this truck save for a small trailer with a motorcycle -- and of course the truck just laughed at that load. 🙂 So I really have zero point of reference here wrt TTs...but know lots about the fiver setups. 🙂

Thanks again.

[Gdetrailer]

ScottG wrote:

Gdetrailer wrote:

ScottG wrote:
A 30' TT will likely have too much hitch weight for your truck. So not only will it overload the hitch it will cause a nose high condition for the truck. Using a WDH doesn't "cover up" handling issues, it prevents them because it transfers the hitch weight forward on the truck. So all that weight is basically sitting in the back of the bed instead of hanging off the back of the bumper where it has far more leverage over the TV. You don't want to find out the hard way that your truck has sway, like coming down a mountain pass.

ScottG, did you read what the OP wrote?

"So I'm looking to downsize to an under 30' TT. I'd prefer 26' or less,"

Not to mention the unit the OP mentioned IS less than 30FT.

And whether YOU want to believe it or not, WD was ORIGINALLY AND SOLELY DESIGNED to allow smaller lighter vehicles to tow MUCH larger HEAVIER trailers which would have NORMALLY OVERLOADED the REAR AXLE of said vehicle.

The OPs F250 IS very capable of towing in excess of 800 lbs of tongue weight WITHOUT the use of WD. The OP HAS 2.5" hitch receiver which is even more capable than my 2" hitch receiver..

To me the OP HAS a good stable towing platform to work with and it will take a considerable amount of weight to overload the rear axle. Heck after all they were using it to tow a 40FT 5vr which SHOULD TELL YOU SOMETHING.

My suggestion stands that as long as the OP stays with in the capacity of the hitch receiver they may want to try a test tow WITHOUT WD to see how the truck rides and handles. Most likely the OP will find just like I did that there ARE cases where WD contributes NOTHING to the mix other than emptying the wallet..

If a F250 is not able to handle 6K of trailer load without WD then we have a severe problem..

By the way, I have towed my 18ft flatbed trailer without WD with 6K of load plus the empty weight of 2.4K for a total of 8.4K and had no ride or handling issues... But keep in mind that my 2013 F250 does have 3400 lb cargo rating :B

As a matter of fact I did read the OP's post and I stand by my comments. A 26" trailer could easily have more than an 800# tongue weight - Mine has 1000#.
As far as the all caps junk about WDH hitch being designed for... These are modern times - not the 60's. The dynamics of RV towing have drastically changed the designs and function of WDH's. Compared to those days, a modern 29" TT is huge.
As to what YOU"VE done? Well just because someone does something and gets away with it doesn't mean it a good idea or support a position of doing something reckless as a matter of policy.
And overloading and axle has nothing to do with sway.
A WDH makes a TT handle better at speed and most importantly, is far more likely to keep the trailer under control in an emergency maneuver.

WD DOES NOT CONTROL ANYTHING during an emergency maneuver, PERIOD.

Weight distribution is all about pushing weight back onto the front axle away from the rear axle.

For your information pickup trucks already have MORE weight on the front axle than they do on the rear axle.

In the case of the OPs situation he has even MORE weight on the front axle since it is a DIESEL.

We are not in the '80 or '90s and the vehicle manufactures HAVE changed their recommendations from 100% restoration of the front axle weight to 50% or even less...

With the vehicle the OP has tongue weight of 800 or even 1000 lbs is not even a load..

Put it this way, if a 3/4 ton pickup can not handle 1000 lbs on the hitch then how do you explain the fact that he was able to tow a 40' 5vr which most likely had a pin weight in excess of 2000 lbs?

Using your theory he should not been able to do that..

Using your theory I should not be able to put 2000 lbs plus load in the back of my truck with putting some sort of helper axle and wheels to drag behind my axle..

A PROPERLY LOADED AND BALANCED bumper pull trailer WILL NOT SWAY. That is where you SHOULD BE STARTING AT.

So far according to you I should be dead.

Far from the truth.

Several times on trips I have had to make QUICK EMERGENCY MANEUVERS involving high way speeds of 70 MPH and AVOIDING DEER running in front of me.. According to YOU both times my rig should have never survived.. But it did.

Neither times did I ever have any feeling of losing control even after SWERVING and braking heavily. Vehicle and trailer stayed right in line and never offered to swing or sway out of control..

What are YOU going to do when your WD BREAKS during an emergency maneuver?

I INTENTIONALLY buy and drive trucks which ARE heavier, have heavier suspension than what I really need... The control of having a bigger truck IS NIGHT AND DAY and I am not depending on some flimsy band aid to cover up the weak link of too little vehicle for the trailer..

First rule is to BUY THE PROPER VEHICLE FOR THE LOAD.

Second rule is to PROPERLY BALANCE the trailer.

THIRD rule is to reread the first rule..

Forth rule is once you have got the first three rules right then apply WD and or anti-sway devices.

Fifth rule is to never, ever bet you life on WD or anti-sway devices to make up for ignoring the first three rules since they can break when you need them the most.

[TomG2]

The Pioneer made the 2500HD sway, but the addition of a single sway bar made it comfortable and safe with a 1500? You must have had a bad 2500HD as there is no comparison to the stability improvement when I went from a 1500 with all the gadgets to a 2500HD without. GM does no "require" a WD hitch with the 2500HD under most conditions, and neither do I.

[Empty_Nest__Soo]

WD hitch is not about helping the truck carry the weight. It is about keeping the truck's weight balanced between front and back wheels and with good steering and braking control.

Add the weight of the tongue to the point where the ball is at, several feet behind the rear axle, and no WD hitch. Now the rear axle acts as the fulcrum of a lever and it's taking several hundred pounds off of the front wheels, which you count on to steer and do most of the braking for your TV. Probably you can still steer and brake, but you'll be doing it with much less margin for safety.

WD hitch counteracts the lever effect and prevents taking the weight off of the front wheels. Your truck's steering and braking should be much more like it is without the tongue weight. In the event of an emergency situation, you will have much better control when a WD hitch is being used.

It takes maybe an hour to set a WD hitch up properly and get everything adjusted. After that, it takes only a couple of minutes to do the extra hookup each time you're hitching up.

Besides WD hitch, I would recommend sway control. I used to tow the little TT in my signature with my last truck, which was a 2500HD with 8600 pound payload. I tried it the first time with WD hitch but no sway control. The extra $80 for adding a friction sway controller was a good investment -- made for much more relaxed driving.

Wayne

[Lowsuv]

I load the tongue with about 950 pounds and the trailer axles scale at 5300 pounds .
My pickup often scales at 86-8800 pounds while towing .
I run more without the weight distributing hitch than I run with it .
We scaled back to a 21T Komfort which is 23.5 feet actual .
We tow with an hd 2500 duramax .
We live near the Cascades and we drive curvy 2 lane US highways , no interstates for 140 miles distance .
My gvw 9200 # pickup gets loaded with as much of the heavy stuff as I can fit in the bed under the snugtop canopy.
Extra 5 gallons of fresh water , 2.5 gallon propane tank , a couple of boxes of OSB scraps to keep the fire from smoking , an extra cooler filled with soda pop , 2 EZ-UP quik-shades ( steel ) .
We boondock style camp often and the additional clearance without the WD bars is a bonus .
Unlike the previous gentleman it takes me at least 15 minutes to get my venerable weight bars in place . I do not have a power tongue jack .
I do not miss the space inside the trailer .
We camp outside .
The trailer is a box to carry our stuff, a place to sleep , take a shower , use our own toilet in the middle of the night , heat up the coffee in the morning , and a convenient mount for an awning .
We cook on a coleman stove and portable bbq most often , outside .
My experience is that repeated towing long distance trips is much nicer with less trailer and more pickup .
The 23.5 foot lever ( without WD ) tows much nicer than the 29 foot lever that preceded it ( with WD ) .

[ScottG]

Gdetrailer wrote:

ScottG wrote:
A 30' TT will likely have too much hitch weight for your truck. So not only will it overload the hitch it will cause a nose high condition for the truck. Using a WDH doesn't "cover up" handling issues, it prevents them because it transfers the hitch weight forward on the truck. So all that weight is basically sitting in the back of the bed instead of hanging off the back of the bumper where it has far more leverage over the TV. You don't want to find out the hard way that your truck has sway, like coming down a mountain pass.

ScottG, did you read what the OP wrote?

"So I'm looking to downsize to an under 30' TT. I'd prefer 26' or less,"

Not to mention the unit the OP mentioned IS less than 30FT.

And whether YOU want to believe it or not, WD was ORIGINALLY AND SOLELY DESIGNED to allow smaller lighter vehicles to tow MUCH larger HEAVIER trailers which would have NORMALLY OVERLOADED the REAR AXLE of said vehicle.

The OPs F250 IS very capable of towing in excess of 800 lbs of tongue weight WITHOUT the use of WD. The OP HAS 2.5" hitch receiver which is even more capable than my 2" hitch receiver..

To me the OP HAS a good stable towing platform to work with and it will take a considerable amount of weight to overload the rear axle. Heck after all they were using it to tow a 40FT 5vr which SHOULD TELL YOU SOMETHING.

My suggestion stands that as long as the OP stays with in the capacity of the hitch receiver they may want to try a test tow WITHOUT WD to see how the truck rides and handles. Most likely the OP will find just like I did that there ARE cases where WD contributes NOTHING to the mix other than emptying the wallet..

If a F250 is not able to handle 6K of trailer load without WD then we have a severe problem..

By the way, I have towed my 18ft flatbed trailer without WD with 6K of load plus the empty weight of 2.4K for a total of 8.4K and had no ride or handling issues... But keep in mind that my 2013 F250 does have 3400 lb cargo rating :B

As a matter of fact I did read the OP's post and I stand by my comments. A 26" trailer could easily have more than an 800# tongue weight - Mine has 1000#.
As far as the all caps junk about WDH hitch being designed for... These are modern times - not the 60's. The dynamics of RV towing have drastically changed the designs and function of WDH's. Compared to those days, a modern 29" TT is huge.
As to what YOU"VE done? Well just because someone does something and gets away with it doesn't mean it a good idea or support a position of doing something reckless as a matter of policy.
And overloading and axle has nothing to do with sway.
A WDH makes a TT handle better at speed and most importantly, is far more likely to keep the trailer under control in an emergency maneuver.

[TomG2]

One of the real joys of towing with my 2500HD's (I have had three of them) is not having to mess with a WD hitch when towing 6,000-7,000 pound travel trailers. The same cannot be said of my F-150's (2) or my Silverado 1500 (1). If you have sway, then you have a problem. Fix it and you won't need a WD hitch with the weights you are considering.

GM, and I, don't have a problem with losing a few hundred pounds off the front axle. That is an old old complaint dating back to the days when we towed with sedans and station wagons.

[Terryallan]

DazedNConfused wrote:


So what are the rules of thumb for towing with and without WD? Truck already has airbags, btw.

Thanks in advance.

With that size truck, and a smaller TT. I really can't say if you need a WDH or not. I can however tell you that airbags do NOT replace any weight lost from the front axle. They will NOT return any lost steering control, and will not help prevent sway caused by a light front end.
Airbags will level the TV, The front end will still be light, and a light steering axle can cause sway.