Torque wars continue in the diesels

[ib516]

Ford has upped the ante to 450hp/935tq and a max tow rating of 34,000# in the F450.

CLICKY

[blt2ski]

4xford,

I have no doubt a new rig in 4lo could pull 30K up a 30% grade. My 05 dmax would do that. With this in mind, there are MANY concrete/aspahlt roads in the 20-30% relm, at least locally for me, that are twisty SOB's, so 4lo is not really an option. So for me, the number needs to be in a rwd mode only!
even my 96 6.5td with an nv4500 could pull a steeper grade than the dmax at 20K lbs, it COULD do 30-32%! In 2wd! Like my Navistar, the dmax with 150% more hp and torque could go faster up a freeway grade.

Marty

[ShinerBock]

I just think that some need to spend a little more time in the medium and heavy duty industry before they start talking about what is or isn't medium duty. I have worked in this industry since I was 16 working after school cleaning dairy tankers and performing oil changes on Peterbilts for a local dairy transport company.

It is very common in this industry for truck makes that also made engines to use their own engines and not sell them to anyone else. MACK was the first to make their own engine in 1938. Today you have PACCAR, Volvo/Mack, Diamler Truck, and Navistar who all make their own engines that are not sold in any other vehicles that they don't manufacture.

It is also very common for engine manufacturers like CAT, Cummins and Detroit Diesel back in the day to sell the same engine to many different truck manufacturers. Basically the same 3406B CAT, Big Cam III Cummins, or Detroit Series 60 that was available in a Peterbilt, was also available in a Kenworth, International, Freightliner, and so on.

There is a big difference between a truck manufacturer and engine manufacturer. Generally a truck manufacturer that makes their own engines will not sell that engine to be put in a competitors chassis while an engine manufacturer will sell their engines to every truck manufacturer. It has been that way for over half a century.

As far as the Cummins in the previous Ford medium duties is concerned, there is a reason why the Powerstroke was not available for so many years and it had more to do with contract obligation than anything else. For a long time, the only engines available in a F-650/750 was a CAT or Cummins. Since Navistar made the Powerstroke and the F650/750 for Ford, Navistar did not let Ford put the Powerstroke in the F-650/750 because that would be a competitor to Navistar's own medium duty truck with their own version of the Powerstroke engine.

When Ford dumped Navistar and started to make the 6.7L they still had another few years on contract for Cummins to make the engines and with Navistar to make the F-650/750 trucks. Once that contract was up with both Navistar and Cummins, then Ford started to make the F-650/750 themselves and started putting their own diesel engine in the truck which allowed them to make more money by not having to purchase the diesels from Cummins. It had nothing to do with one engine being better over the other, and was all due to money like most business decisions are.

[larry_barnhart]

I still feel the Cummins engines are made for many applications and nothing wrong doing so and that does not make them better than other brands just a great company helping to make America Great.

chevman

[Wild_Card]

FishOnOne wrote:

Cummins12V98 wrote:

FishOnOne wrote:
And towing just got easier with the medium duty 6.7 Power Stroke and Torque Shift transmission.

Who besides ford uses it in a MD application?

How about Pierce.... A very respected brand thats now using a MD powertrain that's redefined the medium duty

market.

Pierce Saber

Laughable reply.

[Wild_Card]

New IH tractor on farm has Cummins 6.7 with DEF. Old IH combine has 5.9 Cummins.Ok Dont know of any industrial apllications with Powerstroke or Duramax powerplant
Cummins is an Industrial engine.

Cummins 6bt engine is in every market. Hell Ford used it in class 6,7 and 8 trucks for how long?

[FishOnOne]

Cummins12V98 wrote:

FishOnOne wrote:
And towing just got easier with the medium duty 6.7 Power Stroke and Torque Shift transmission.

Who besides ford uses it in a MD application?

How about Pierce.... A very respected brand thats now using a MD powertrain that's redefined the medium duty market.

Pierce Saber

[mich800]

ShinerBock wrote:

Cummins12V98 wrote:
My point is because you say something does it make it so? Fish is claiming Fords engine and trans are MD. My point is Cummins and AISIN are BOTH used in many different MD applications NOT just RAM.

THAT is what "I" claim they are TRUE MD.

That is only if you live in fanboy world(which both of you are guilty of). With that kind of messed up logic, then one could say that the PACCAR MX and PX engines are not really medium/heavy duty engines since they are not available in any other vehicles besides PACCAR vehicles (Peterbilt and Kenworth). Or that Detroit Diesels are not really medium/heavy duty since they are no longer available in any other vehicle than Diamler Truck vehicles(Freightliner and Western Star). Or that the MACK MP engines and mDrive & Maxitorque transmissions are not medium/heavy duty since they are not available in any other vehicle besides a MACK. See how silly that sounds?

In the real world where most of us live, logic and reason get to decide what is true or not. In that world, the Ford Powestroke and Torqshift are available in medium/heavy duty trucks just like the MACK engines and transmission are so that classifies them as medium duty engine and transmission as well.

Nice to read a sane and logical post here once and a while. It seems some lose all objectivity when they have the brand loyalty tunnel vision.

[larry_barnhart]

ShinerBock wrote:

larry barnhart wrote:



I have said this for years. Cummins has made some bad engines so nothing is perfect,

chevman

And so has GM and Ford. All of them have also made some good ones.

Yes this is true for all brands.

chevman

[4x4ord]

Ford uses the Powerdtroke in their F750 and backs it with a 250,000 mile warranty while putting out 330 hp I think it is pretty hard to claim that the 6.7 Powerstoke/TorqShift doesn't meet the criteria of being medium duty. The fluid change interval of the Torqshift is 150,000 miles while being used in an F750......How often does the Aisin need servicing in a pick up truck?

[ShinerBock]

Cummins12V98 wrote:
My point is because you say something does it make it so? Fish is claiming Fords engine and trans are MD. My point is Cummins and AISIN are BOTH used in many different MD applications NOT just RAM.

THAT is what "I" claim they are TRUE MD.

That is only if you live in fanboy world(which both of you are guilty of). With that kind of messed up logic, then one could say that the PACCAR MX and PX engines are not really medium/heavy duty engines since they are not available in any other vehicles besides PACCAR vehicles (Peterbilt and Kenworth). Or that Detroit Diesels are not really medium/heavy duty since they are no longer available in any other vehicle than Diamler Truck vehicles(Freightliner and Western Star). Or that the MACK MP engines and mDrive & Maxitorque transmissions are not medium/heavy duty since they are not available in any other vehicle besides a MACK. See how silly that sounds?

In the real world where most of us live, logic and reason get to decide what is true or not. In that world, the Ford Powestroke and Torqshift are available in medium/heavy duty trucks just like the MACK engines and transmission are so that classifies them as medium duty engine and transmission as well.

[ShinerBock]

larry barnhart wrote:



I have said this for years. Cummins has made some bad engines so nothing is perfect,

chevman

And so has GM and Ford. All of them have also made some good ones.

[Cummins12V98]

My point is because you say something does it make it so? Fish is claiming Fords engine and trans are MD. My point is Cummins and AISIN are BOTH used in many different MD applications NOT just RAM.

THAT is what "I" claim they are TRUE MD.

[larry_barnhart]

ShinerBock wrote:

Cummins12V98 wrote:

FishOnOne wrote:
And towing just got easier with the medium duty 6.7 Power Stroke and Torque Shift transmission.

Who besides ford uses it in a MD application?

Why does that matter?

Cummins is an engine manufacturer who sells their engine to truck manufactures. Ford is a truck manufacturer so it should not be surprising that they don't sell their engines to other competing truck manufacturers. That would be stupid.

I have said this for years. Cummins has made some bad engines so nothing is perfect,

chevman

[ShinerBock]

Cummins12V98 wrote:

FishOnOne wrote:
And towing just got easier with the medium duty 6.7 Power Stroke and Torque Shift transmission.

Who besides ford uses it in a MD application?

Why does that matter?

Cummins is an engine manufacturer who sells their engine to truck manufactures. Ford is a truck manufacturer so it should not be surprising that they don't sell their engines to other competing truck manufacturers. That would be stupid.

[ShinerBock]

ksss wrote:
Typically the medium duty trucks get detuned from the 350 version, so this is interesting. They must have a lot of faith in the truck or they have the computer dialed in to the point that it will prevent its own destruction. The GM/IH medium duty trucks will available for order this Spring, I am told. Should be interesting to see how the spec sheet compares.

The reason why they are detuned has more to do with the different emissions certification requirements between the pickup truck and the different cab & chassis combinations. Complete trucks use a chassis dyno certification while cab & chassis use a engine dyno certification since the chassis is not complete. They also have different power levels in the cab & chassis trucks depending on the specs and what it is rated to carry. It has very little to do with dependability.