Tow Capacity Comparisons For 2015 Trucks

[DW-gray]

Here are three links to some truck brand comparisons for half-ton, three-quarter and one ton trucks with some jaw dropping surprises.

Half-ton Truck Realistic Towing Capacity

Three-quarter Ton Truck Realistic Towing Capacity

One Ton Truck Realistic Towing Capacity


Sorry about that. Links fixed.

[kzspree320]

As blt2ski stated, every instance can be different and it's not simple IF you want to push right to the edge of capability. You could reduce the calculation by 10% to 15% to build in a safety margin, but that would be arbitrary and inaccurate. You could and probably should put a disclaimer next to the results saying this is only an estimate based on industry averages. If you will be above 90% (or some other %) please proceed with caution and use the actual weights from your truck and trailer. If you do not know the accurate weights, please weigh at a CAT scale.

The catch 22 is that if you make it too hard people may not understand or use it properly, if at all. I think a calculator makes sense to get you in the ballpark, but it takes a lot of model specific information on the truck and trailer, as well as loading, to make it accurate. The problem is that only the individual user knows how he/she is going to use it. My fiver has a dry weight of 10,600 lbs and a GVWR of 14,000 lbs. Loaded it is about 11,800 lbs or so generally. Neither the dry weight or GVWR of my fiver would be accurate, but as many have stated it is better to use GVWR and be safe than dry weight and be overloaded. I am about 500 lbs below my RAWR on my truck based on loaded CAT scale weight. If I load close to my fiver GVWR and put all the really heavy stuff right at the front, I could go over my RAWR.

All you can do is try to help people get close in this process. No calculator can be precise because all the variables will never be known. It takes people caring and wanting to know and understand, as well as a dose of common sense when distributing weight in the RV. Good luck.

[DW-gray]

Okay, this is interesting. I jumped over to one of the other well known sites that has a fifth wheel calculator. I input the ratings and weight info per above. Entering the RAWR and the RAW did not change the tow capacity. The results was 16,184, the same as RV Tow Check. Hmm...

Yes, it is complex. But as I already said, the current well known and normally used methods are not working to reduce the number of vehicles exceeding the weight ratings. Salespeople don't know what they are doing. A lot of buyers don't have a clue. Especially the newbie RVers. A new buyer at a dealership isn't going to get the complex information. I haven't met salesperson yet that knew anything about doing a job rate sheet.

Even if a simplified calculator like RV Tow Check is isn't perfected yet, do you not think it's better than the status quo? Or is all this talk of helping people make a better choice the first time at the dealership a waste of time and effort?

Dave

[blt2ski]

Your problem is, you are trying to keep it simple. When in reality, it is NEVER that simple.

At the end of the day, one needs to spec based on multiple items. Yes the typicle gvwr, gawr, gcwr etc. BUT, you need empty axel wts, how much wt of a given type is added to which axel. I found with my 96 crew cab 100% of my families 1200 lbs went to the rear axel. Very little if any was added to the front axel. Add in 1200 lbs of family, 200-400 or so of other items, sometimes more, hw in the 700 lb range on a ball mount. I had a SW 9200 gvwr crew cab truck, base wt of 6600, 4500 on the front, 2100 on the rear, in the 5000-5500 on the rear, 4300-4500 on the front. Typical total gvw I was 9000-9500 lbs. Along with 6000-6500 lbs on the trailer axels. Total, 15-16K lbs, depending upon how and where were heading too etc. Close to 2200-3000 lbs was added to the base trailer axel in clothes, bedding, food, water etc for a family of 6. I even added ski gear in the winter. Then once snow load of 4-5000 lbs to the trailer and another 2-3000 in the truck. Came home after being stuck at the top of I90 and 6' of snow over 48 hrs at just over 20K lbs total! There is a weigh scale part way home..........

It is also not hard if you improperly load a truck, to be over a RA capacity, still be with in gvw if you do not understand how the wts gets transfered thru the suspension.

Get ahold of a FORD or equal cab and chassis design spec book, you will learn way the heck more than you already know. You will figure out, it is also not simple per say to know what you can or can not load etc.

Also, to a degree, while you and others, do not like talking about, or putting the legal aspect into things like this. You had better do so. If this calculator was used for a Type A motor home. The manufacture specs a 25K GRAWR, you can NOT legally put 25K on that axel. You only get 20K lbs per federal law. Just as you are having issues with the loading part of the equation. You can have issues both sides of the manufacture warranty rating, and the legal load rating of a given vehicle. One needs to know both sides!

Marty

[DW-gray]

JIMNLIN wrote:

op wrote:
Now we’ll look at the trailer weight of 16184.

Fifth Wheel -
Potential PW @20% is 3237
PW (3237) + GVW (6616) = Loaded GVW (9853) (Under GVWR: 10000)
PW (3237) + Rear Axle Weight (2581) = Loaded RAW (5818) (Under RAWR: 6000)

You've dropped some figures in your calculations.
Trucks base rear axle weight is 2581 lbs. Now add 250 lbs for the hitch and 170 lbs (50 percent of occupants on the rear axle) = 3001 lbs. Now add the 3237 lb pin weight = 6238 lbs on the rear axle. The truck is over the 6000 RAWR.
At this point air bags/18" 3500 lb rated tires and wheel will have to be added.

Now lets hope the hitch isn't a 22% which a many are. The 22% = a 3560 lb pin weight.

Like we tell folks its best to get some actual scaled front and rear axle weights and use the GVWR or RAWR method. Both are safe.
That way we won't be telling anyone the 2500 Ram Hemi can tow a 16184 lb 5th wheel.

Yes, I acknowledged that with kzspree320 and I share the same with you:

So now what can be done about it? What do you recommend to fix this flaw?

Keep in mind, getting scaled axle weight from a dealer is probably not going to happen. Some salespeople don't even know where to find such information. It may be very difficult to get the best weight information. Searching for that info at some manufacturer's websites can be very difficult. Then there is this question, will the trailer's pin weight be 20%? If it turns out to be only 17%, then he would be in much better position. (As kzspree320 pointed out, it could be higher.)

So lets talk about how to improve a calculator that only accepts GCWR, GVWR, GVW, the hitch, passenger weight, and cargo weight and not add any other entries.

The mission is K.I.S.S. Keep It Simply Safe and easy to use.

************

I've read Kzspree320's response. My thoughts now are going back to my original 25% pin weight method. I started reading so many others using the 20% idea, and I took the risk. Well, I'm now thinking that was a bad move.

What do you all think about using 25%?

[kzspree320]

DW-gray wrote:

kzspree320 wrote:
Fifth Wheel -
Potential PW @20% is 3237
PW (3237) + GVW (6616) = Loaded GVW (9853) (Under GVWR: 10000)
PW (3237) + Rear Axle Weight (2581) = Loaded RAW (5818) (Under RAWR: 6000)

It looks like your rear axle weight does not include the weight of the fifth wheel hitch or passengers. It's clear your GVWR does, but some weight has to be added to the empty weight of rear axle and pin weight to accomodate these items. I suspect your loaded RAW is closer to 6200 lbs with a 200 lb hitch and about half of 340 passenger weight. That would put if over a 6,000 RAWR. What am I missing??

Well how about that. You pointed out a potential flaw. That's the closet I've seen. So now what can be done about it? What do you recommend to fix this flaw?

Keep in mind, getting scaled axle weight from a dealer is probably not going to happen. Some salespeople don't even know where to find such information. It may be very difficult to get the best weight information. Searching for that info at some manufacturer's websites can be very difficult. Then there is this question, will the trailer's pin weight be 20%? If it turns out to be only 17%, then he would be in much better position.

So lets talk about how to improve a calculator that only accepts GCWR, GVWR, GVW, the hitch, passenger weight, and cargo weight and not add any other entries.

The mission is K.I.S.S. Keep It Simply Safe and easy to use.

I would add 100% of hitch weight, 50% of passenger weight and 100% of cargo weight to your rear axle weight. Hitch is over axle 100%, people probably about 50% inside the cab, and cargo could be either in the cab or bed. Play it safe and assume it's in the bed and use 100% of the cargo weight. This is what I would do with the limited inputs above. I also agree with the KISS method. Your right the pin weight could be only 17%, but it could also be 22%. The 20% is about average. You can only give an estimate. If someone is very close, they need to look closely and see if the model fiver they are considering has over 20% pin weight. Hope this discussion helps.

[JIMNLIN]

op wrote:
Now we’ll look at the trailer weight of 16184.

Fifth Wheel -
Potential PW @20% is 3237
PW (3237) + GVW (6616) = Loaded GVW (9853) (Under GVWR: 10000)
PW (3237) + Rear Axle Weight (2581) = Loaded RAW (5818) (Under RAWR: 6000)

You've dropped some figures in your calculations.
Trucks base rear axle weight is 2581 lbs. Now add 250 lbs for the hitch and 170 lbs (50 percent of occupants on the rear axle) = 3001 lbs. Now add the 3237 lb pin weight = 6238 lbs on the rear axle. The truck is over the 6000 RAWR.
At this point air bags/18" 3500 lb rated tires and wheel will have to be added.

Now lets hope the hitch isn't a 22% which a many are. The 22% = a 3560 lb pin weight.

Like we tell folks its best to get some actual scaled front and rear axle weights and use the GVWR or RAWR method. Both are safe.
That way we won't be telling anyone the 2500 Ram Hemi can tow a 16184 lb 5th wheel.

[DW-gray]

kzspree320 wrote:
Fifth Wheel -
Potential PW @20% is 3237
PW (3237) + GVW (6616) = Loaded GVW (9853) (Under GVWR: 10000)
PW (3237) + Rear Axle Weight (2581) = Loaded RAW (5818) (Under RAWR: 6000)

It looks like your rear axle weight does not include the weight of the fifth wheel hitch or passengers. It's clear your GVWR does, but some weight has to be added to the empty weight of rear axle and pin weight to accomodate these items. I suspect your loaded RAW is closer to 6200 lbs with a 200 lb hitch and about half of 340 passenger weight. That would put if over a 6,000 RAWR. What am I missing??

Well how about that. You pointed out a potential flaw. That's the closet I've seen. So now what can be done about it? What do you recommend to fix this flaw?

Keep in mind, getting scaled axle weight from a dealer is probably not going to happen. Some salespeople don't even know where to find such information. It may be very difficult to get the best weight information. Searching for that info at some manufacturer's websites can be very difficult. Then there is this question, will the trailer's pin weight be 20%? If it turns out to be only 17%, then he would be in much better position.

So lets talk about how to improve a calculator that only accepts GCWR, GVWR, GVW, the hitch, passenger weight, and cargo weight and not add any other entries.

The mission is K.I.S.S. Keep It Simply Safe and easy to use.

[BenK]

A continual point of bewilderment for me how a chart can know how much
'my' TV weighs...and what is NOT rocket science and is simple
math...becomes rocket science for folks who won't go out and actually
weigh their TV, axle by axle...and their trailer...whether Fiver or
tongued...and that, that chart knows the actual PIN/tongue of any
particular trailer.

Then the forever debate whether to follow the RATINGS or not...to even
what is a rating...as if the OEM engineering team are clueless on that topic

Or the belief that any OEM published/listed/etc MTWR is an absolute...it is NOT

Continue to say...decide whether you believe in the ratings system or
not...if not, then do whatever and know that you have taken the OEM(s)
off the warranty (if any left) hook and liability hook. If yes, then
learn how the ratings system works and go out and actually weigh your
stuff

The simple math equation is:

GCWR >= TV + TT + all cargo/hitch/etc

Then factor in the actual weights to which ever 'RATING' in the below
diagram (whimsy to try and get the point across that even a motorcycle
'can' tow something...but within it's ratings)...that each RATING might
become the weak link to dictate the overall RATING...

howmuchcanitow howmuchshoulditow


So folks...tell me where I've missed the point of all this? So that I
can learn if I'm off the mark

[kzspree320]

Fifth Wheel -
Potential PW @20% is 3237
PW (3237) + GVW (6616) = Loaded GVW (9853) (Under GVWR: 10000)
PW (3237) + Rear Axle Weight (2581) = Loaded RAW (5818) (Under RAWR: 6000)

It looks like your rear axle weight does not include the weight of the fifth wheel hitch or passengers. It's clear your GVWR does, but some weight has to be added to the empty weight of rear axle and pin weight to accomodate these items. I suspect your loaded RAW is closer to 6200 lbs with a 200 lb hitch and about half of 340 passenger weight. That would put if over a 6,000 RAWR. What am I missing??

[DW-gray]

JIMNLIN wrote:

So far you haven't proved that calculators that don't include GAWR fail. Since the calculator discussion has been mostly about RV Tow Check, prove to me, and everyone else, the flaws in RV Tow Check with the following data from real tow vehicles that may tow fifth wheel or conventional trailers.

I've ran the numbers and have posted the results above. This calculator has been around for a while and has been on other RV forums. Reviews of its accuracy were about like we see on rv.net. Not much good was said about it.

However your asking for numbers that have nothing to do with what I have said or what the calculator asks for.
These are the numbers straight out of the '15 Ram Body Builders spec sheets PDF for a 2500 Ram 6.4 hemi 5500 FAWR/6000 RAWR the calculator asks for and the same numbers I used in my above reply;

...22800 GCWR..
...10000 GCWR
...6026 gvw

I added
...250 gear/hitch
...340 passenger

calculator says the 2500 Ram can tow a 16184 lb TT or 5th wheel.


Now do the GVWR math or the RAWR math on this truck and same trailer and either way a 16k trailer will overload the GVWR and/or the RAWR/tire capacities of the 2500 truck. Overloading a tire is illegal and dangerous.
This a a example of the fallacy of a calculator. In this case its basing a formula on GCWR calculator that omits the trucks #1 safety numbers (RAWR/tires/wheels/brakes and suspension capacities).

Okay, thanks. I’ll work with these numbers you've provided and use the information that’s described on the calculator website.

BTW: I forgot to ask for the base weight of the rear axle. I found it and used this: Rear axle wt. 2581.

Method 1: Available payload (Avoids exceeding GVWR)

GVWR (10000) - GVW (6026) – Gear/Hitch (250) – Passengers (340) = Available payload (3,384)

Using the national average PW of 20% on the available payload would result in a towing capacity of 16,920.

Using a mid-range TW of 12.5% on the available payload would result in a towing capacity of 27,072. (Whoa, you might say. But wait.)

Method 2: GCWR

GCWR (22800) – GVW (6616) = Towing Capacity (16184)

Therefore, since method 2 is the capacity that falls within the manufacturers statements, method 1 is discarded to avoid exceeding GCWR.

Now we’ll look at the trailer weight of 16184.

Fifth Wheel -
Potential PW @20% is 3237
PW (3237) + GVW (6616) = Loaded GVW (9853) (Under GVWR: 10000)
PW (3237) + Rear Axle Weight (2581) = Loaded RAW (5818) (Under RAWR: 6000)

Conventional Trailer -
Potential TW @12.5% is 2023.
Potential TW @15% is 2428.
(Really no need to break that down.)

Now that you see how this is calculated, go ahead and throw all the verifiable vehicle weight and ratings at it you want to. If you can find a vehicle that will fail these double check methods, please let me know. So far, the GVWR/Payload and GCWR methods has worked every time for me. Even when considering nearly a hundred RAWRs. I've stop trying to make these methods fail.

[JIMNLIN]

So far you haven't proved that calculators that don't include GAWR fail. Since the calculator discussion has been mostly about RV Tow Check, prove to me, and everyone else, the flaws in RV Tow Check with the following data from real tow vehicles that may tow fifth wheel or conventional trailers.

I've ran the numbers and have posted the results above. This calculator has been around for a while and has been on other RV forums. Reviews of its accuracy were about like we see on rv.net. Not much good was said about it.

However your asking for numbers that have nothing to do with what I have said or what the calculator asks for.
These are the numbers straight out of the '15 Ram Body Builders spec sheets PDF for a 2500 Ram 6.4 hemi 5500 FAWR/6000 RAWR the calculator asks for and the same numbers I used in my above reply;

...22800 GCWR..
...10000 GCWR
...6026 gvw

I added
...250 gear/hitch
...340 passenger

calculator says the 2500 Ram can tow a 16184 lb TT or 5th wheel.


Now do the GVWR math or the RAWR math on this truck and same trailer and either way a 16k trailer will overload the GVWR and/or the RAWR/tire capacities of the 2500 truck. Overloading a tire is illegal and dangerous.
This a a example of the fallacy of a calculator. In this case its basing a formula on GCWR calculator that omits the trucks #1 safety numbers (RAWR/tires/wheels/brakes and suspension capacities).

[BenK]

GCWR > or = TV plus TT plus hitch

Then go out actually weigh your TV or TT...how else can anyone ever know where
they are in reference to their ratings?

[DW-gray]

blt2ski wrote:
There you go! as I have been stating. The reason to go NOT go over the manufactures ratings are, handling, shortens the life of the vehicle, ALONG WITH as I have stated, warranty will and can be denied. THOSE are the reasons for NOT going over the manufactures ratings.
Marty

Thank you, Marty. It's good to know we are now reading the same sheet of music, so to speak. It's tough sometimes trying weed out hearsay and provide actual truth backed up with real data and real published statements. I'm not perfect. I read (study) just as much, or more, as others. Each one of can read the same paragraphs and come away with entirely different interpretations. Does that make one right and the other wrong? I think not. It would be better that some would ask for clarification, rather than making unfounded accusations.

I do get a little bothered sometimes when discussions veer off in a direction that's not really beneficial to the potential RVer. I have to ask, "What would a new RVer go away with after reading this or other threads on RV forums?" And I don't like getting sucked into such non helpful information. That is one reason I don't visit RV.net much anymore.

Dave

[DW-gray]

JIMNLIN wrote:
Thanks for posting what GM says about not exceeding the front or REAR axle rating as it reinforces my point I've made that the calculator doesn't take in any of the GAWR's into consideration anywhere which leads to over loading the RAWR on "SOME" high GVWR vehicles with low RAWR numbers.

GAWRs are not the primary function within Title 49 in consideration of braking, tire and rim capacity. Most anyplace where it’s written “GAWR,” it refers to the sum of GAWRs should not be less than GVWR. GVWR is the supreme rating regardless of the sum of GAWRs.

Title 49 says hundreds of tech things but nowhere does it say that GVWR is supreme over the GAWRs.
Tire and rim capacity are selected by the vehicles GAWR if you take the time and read 571.110/.120 and has nothing to do with the trucks GVWR.

Brakes.....
NHTSA says this about components of the GAWR:
"Gross Axle Weight Rating is the rated load-carrying capacity of an individual axle and wheel assembly. (It represents the load that may be steadily sustained by the components in the system; i.e., tires, rims, hubs, bearing, axles, brakes, suspension, sub frame, etc. with the GAWR limited by the components with the lowest working rating"

or another source...

RMA (rubber manufacturers)

• GAWR: Gross Axle Weight Rating (for each axle) -
The maximum weight rating that the components
(tires, rims/wheels, brakes, springs, and axle) of
each axle are designed to support. This is
determined by the lowest design capacity of any
component. In other words, if the wheels have the
lowest design capacity of any component on that
axle, installing tires with a higher load capacity
does not increase the GAWR. By regulation, the
tire load rating times the number of tires on that
axle must equal or exceed the GAWR for that axle.

and for a trailer.....
dexter axle;

The Gross Axle Weight Rating (GAWR) of your running gear is determined by the lowest rated component in the assembly. The capacity of the wheel, tire, axle, brake, springs/rubber and hub are all considered.

You have still chosen not give an answer to my last two questions. Additionally, you're putting words in my mouth that I did not say.

So far you haven't proved that calculators that don't include GAWR fail. Since the calculator discussion has been mostly about RV Tow Check, prove to me, and everyone else, the flaws in RV Tow Check with the following data from real tow vehicles that may tow fifth wheel or conventional trailers.

GCWR:
GVWR:
Front GAWR:
Rear GAWR:
Vehicle GVW:
Vehicle VIN: