Towing in the Rockies - Towing Capacity Safety Margin?

[travelrider73]

I'm researching both a tow vehicle and a 5er combo and want to make sure that whatever we end up with as a tow vehicle will do the job no matter where we travel. The steepest grades I can think of are in the Rockies, hence the title of this topic.

So, how much of a safety margin between the manufacturer's stated towing capacity and what you actually purchase would you want to have in order to be comfortable with occasional steep grades?

Note that we are not planning to full time in the Rockies, and we will certainly spend some time on flat land, but I don't want to be climbing at 10mph up-hill and out of control downhill when we run into these steep grades. So, I guess we'll need a real jake brake too.

2013 Ford F350 Crew Cab Dually 4x4 - 23,200 5er towing capacity. How much GVWR trailer would you actually be comfortable towing in steep grades? Would you be ok with a 19,000lb GVWR trailer?

2013 Dodge RAM 3500 Crew Cab Dually 4x4 - 28,900 5er towing capacity. Would THIS be enough for the 19,000lb GVWR trailer?

These are just examples. I haven't actually picked a 19000lb 5er yet. The question really is - how much safety margin should I have?

I'm also NOT going to end up driving a big semi tractor. We want a normal pickup to be a daily driver when we're parked and a 1 ton dually is about as big as we want to deal with.

If we have to compromise, it'll probably be on buying a somewhat lighter 5er.

Thanks!!!

[wski]

2014 Dodge Ram 3500 with the aisan transmission is bullet proof and gets my vote. You will love the exhaust brake on the new Ram trucks, huge improvement over the 2012 model year.

[sh410]

travelrider73 wrote:
I know, they can't push it too much for fear of a huge lawsuit, but I suspect they push it a little.

No one here can tell you how much they might push it. Its up to you to decide how much a "little" is.

[travelrider73]

Terryallan wrote:
Honestly. You can SAFELY tow right up to the manufacturers posted capacity. They did the research, and math. No need for you to redo it, and lower the capacities the engineers developed.

Well, there's a skeptic in me that wonders how much influence the marketing department has over the engineering department at the Big 3. It seems like they have plenty of reason to push the limits so they can advertise that they have the biggest baddest beast on the road. If everyone pushes a few hundred pounds here and there, all of a sudden there's a tiny asterisk at the bottom of their towing claims... I know, they can't push it too much for fear of a huge lawsuit, but I suspect they push it a little.

[mowermech]

Terryallan wrote:

travelrider73 wrote:
I'm researching both a tow vehicle and a 5er combo and want to make sure that whatever we end up with as a tow vehicle will do the job no matter where we travel. The steepest grades I can think of are in the Rockies, hence the title of this topic.

So, how much of a safety margin between the manufacturer's stated towing capacity and what you actually purchase would you want to have in order to be comfortable with occasional steep grades?


Thanks!!!

Honestly. You can SAFELY tow right up to the manufacturers posted capacity. They did the research, and math. No need for you to redo it, and lower the capacities the engineers developed.

Exactly! In fact, it is quite possible to safely exceed the GCWR of some trucks. I towed a 32 foot fifth wheel over the Rockies, the Cascades, and the Sierras several times before I weighed the rig and found it to be a little more than a ton and a half OVER the GCWR of the truck (it was UNDER all GVWR and GAWRs)! No, I do NOT recommend that anybody do that, I'm simply stating that I did it, and nothing bent or broke, nobody was injured or died, and there were no accidents.

[JIMNLIN]

Note that we are not planning to full time in the Rockies, and we will certainly spend some time on flat land, but I don't want to be climbing at 10mph up-hill and out of control downhill when we run into these steep grades. So, I guess we'll need a real jake brake too.

Our 6.6/6.7 LDT size diesel engines don't use the real jakebrake (engine brake). However Pacbrake has has a P-67 Load leash engine brake for the 6.7 Cummins if you want to spend some big bucks.
The Cummins uses the Holset variable geometry turbo (VGT) with a sliding nozzle as a exhaust brake. This includes a program with the auto tranny torque converter clutch which locks on down grades. Testing has show it has better exhaust braking power than the other two.

Ford and GM diesel uses the variable vane turbo (VVT) along with the TC clutch lock up program that acts as a exhaust brake. GM seems to have the better exhaust braking power between the two.

The new model one ton DRW trucks have GVWRs up to 14k lbs and more importantly 9700-9800 RAWR for carrying any 5th wheel trailer pin weight safely.

The 80 percent figure thrown around comes from a era when even our biggest engines were limited to 230-250 hp and 375-400 ft lbs torque. The new gen diesels run from 650-850 torque and 375+ hp. These truck will pull 100 percent of their rating safely. Their not your dads '90s/early '00s 235/250 hp diesel engines.

[Terryallan]

travelrider73 wrote:
I'm researching both a tow vehicle and a 5er combo and want to make sure that whatever we end up with as a tow vehicle will do the job no matter where we travel. The steepest grades I can think of are in the Rockies, hence the title of this topic.

So, how much of a safety margin between the manufacturer's stated towing capacity and what you actually purchase would you want to have in order to be comfortable with occasional steep grades?


Thanks!!!

Honestly. You can SAFELY tow right up to the manufacturers posted capacity. They did the research, and math. No need for you to redo it, and lower the capacities the engineers developed.

[mpierce]

I have a 2014 3500 RAM DRW. Also a 19K toyhauler. The truck handles it great! The EB is fantastic! Most, if not all, reviews say the Cummins/RAM EB is the best one out there. That truck WILL handle the 19K trailer fine. Get 3.73 rears. Unless in big hills all the time, the 4.10 is overkill. 3.42 will have it shifting more. 3.73 good compromise.

[hoopers]

I live and tow in Colorado all the time.

I think most of the new trucks should be OK towing 19000 lbs up the Rockies, as long as you are happy with 45-55 mph.
I tow with a 2011 chevy, sometimes about 17000 lbs. I can maintain between 45-55, depending which grade you are talking about.
The bigger issue is going downhill, especially going east, since the grade is curvy, long and steep. Plus, it is only 2 lane, and there are many semi's maintaing between 55-60. Without a good exhaust brake, you might burn your brakes out. Even with my EB on, I have to touch the brakes now and than, but not too much, just now and than.

Most reviewers have said the Dodge and GM exhaust brake perform better. But maybe the Ford EB is good enough, I don't know.

[Hannibal]

You'll have to take the claims of towing like it's not back there with a grain of salt. My four Cummins Rams towing near or just over their tow ratings saw peak hp rpm on interstate grades and bogged to 58~mph with foot to floor. That was 2600rpm with the 12v and 2900rpm with the 24v Cummins. Here is an honest video of a 6.7L PSD towing a 13-14~k lb toy hauler in the mountains. Notice 3k rpm and 58mph up the grade. Won't hurt a thing. If it does or the truck runs hot, it's inadequate for the job. You'll also notice the Youtube vids that claim O/D and 65mph up the grades never show a trailer in the mirrors. That's because they aren't towing anything. Diesel tales are like fish tales. There's more BS than truth. Keep it within the manufacturer's ratings, let it run in it's normal operating rpm range and enjoy the ride.:C

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_1ZefREs0Y

[old_guy]

as mentioned above the grades are 7% but some of them are long, long grades.

[Bionic_Man]

For 9 years, I used a 2003 Ram 3500 to tow 17,000 pounds through the rockies. Never had any hint of trouble.

Any of the 3500/350 trucks will be more than adequate for the trailer you are considering.

[blt2ski]

"MOST" forced induction motors on light duty trucks will have sea level hp to about 10K ft, then they too start to lose HP at the same rate as not forced induction motors. Unless you are at the top of pikes peak, then down 8-12%, you will not notice much difference at elevation in the rockies. I did not notice any difference at sealevel with a 185hp 6.5td from GM at 9500' in yellowstone, as I do here in Seattle. I was at 16K gcwr, and that rig with the manual was rated to 12500! It did better than the 88 K3500 with tbi 454 that had a 14500 gcwr, that was AT 14K gcwr. The turbo on the 6.5 was the big factor in how well we did at elevation. I was pulling the same trailer, had same family of 6, altho my 4 kids were 9 yrs older in 01 than in 92 when we went thru there.

I would worry more about a given trailer pushing me over a cliff per say than pulling up one. Most rigs today have SOOOOOO much more power, cooling etc than 20+ yrs ago, that one should generally speaking, with a turbo diesel not have any issues pulling trailer. Now 19K lbs with a dually 1 ton......I would prefer not. If I could get a DOT class 4 ie 13500-16K gvwr....that would be a different story. I believe the F450 or Dodge 3500 is in this territory, not sure I would do it with my now gone 05 3500 dmax I had the power part, but not the truck chassis part.

marty

[travelrider73]

johnrbd wrote:
Check this site. I believe it will give you the "power" to tow your 19,000 trailer, but I could be wrong.

http://autos.yahoo.com/blogs/motoramic/two-v-8s-four-superchargers-1-200-hp-191437759.html

That was bad ass! Ridiculous, but bad ass nevertheless!

[gat75]

Travelrider73, you are in luck. DW & I just completed a 7800 mile- 6 week trip with a 2009 GMC D/A 2500 crewcab shortbed combo with a full profile 34 ft 5W. Weighed truck & trailer right before we left on cat scales, combo weighed total of 19,300lbs. We pulled this setup through 13 states in nearbout every possible scenario you could imagine. Beginning at Texas to S Dakota, then to Y-stone, on to Crater Lake, then to Redwoods. Onward to Yosemite, stopped at Hoover Dam, across Arizona & N Mexico. I was concerned about having enough power & being able to stop; (truck does not have exhaust brake). My worries were first addressed in this forum. I was told correctly,do not worry- duramax & allybaby will get you up & then back down. Only issue I had was truck & tranny warming up higher than normal going up extreme grades for 8-10 miles stretchs. I just pulled over & cooled er down. Arizon & Texas had 25+mph wind, this was one of the few times that I felt a 3500 dually would have fared better; (even though we never come close to loosing control of combo). I also would have liked a better weight cushion; I was only 30 lbs from being overloaded on drive axle. I compensated by not filling up my 50 gal aux tank. I just kept approx 10-15 gallon cushion to keep the weight down. The newer D/A's have 400hp with over 800ftlbs Torque. My truck has 385hp with 660torque. With truck in T/H mode (with cruse set) , I would pass right by the 18w's just barely making it up the steep passes. I had plenty of power to run, but I always stick to around max speed of 65mph, (Most of time just slowing down to 50-55 & enjoying the ride). You would be suprised how much cooler your engine & tranny run when slowing down to 55.

[hmknightnc]

smkettner wrote:
Keep the GVWR within the tow rating and the loaded pin weight less than the remaining payload and I would say good to go.

x2, Forget manufactures tow ratings for pulling FWs, they are seldom if ever limiting. If you are really worried about safety margin and plan to be on some steep roads keep your Pin Wieght (plus truck cargo) below the manufactures payload ratings and you will be good to go. In my opinion this is a very limiting way to figure it out but it will certainly make sure you meet all manufactures limits with some margin(use 20% of FW GVWR for pin estimate). Some 1 ton duallys would not meet this requirement for a 19,000# GVWR FW.