Towing with Dedicated Winter Snow Tires (snowflake rating)

[freetheheal]

I tow a travel trailer toy hauler along with a sled deck and snowmobiles in the pickup throughout the winter. I'm interested in dedicated winter snow tires with the snowflake rating. During the summer I would switch out the wheels/tires to a summer tire. I'm wondering if anyone else does this and what tire they use. I'm looking at the Cooper M+S. My concern is the tire being soft and wearing out quickly. Any input is appreciated.

[ktmrfs]

freetheheal wrote:
There is a lot of great info being discussed. I'm only putting on maybe 8,000 miles in the winter so maybe a dedicated snow is not a bad choice as I can swap them easily if I don't need them.

with that mileage, you should be able to at least 2 and likely 3 years out of a set of true winter studdless snowflake tires. similar with studded winter tires.

[timdan94]

I'm running the firestone winterforce LT's on my dually and love them. Went from using 4wd all the time to using it twice last year. I haul a slide in camper with them on and they don't seem to be wearing fast at all.

[intheburbs]

I run Goodyear Duratracs year-round on my 3/4-ton Suburban. Just replaced the set, had 50k miles on the first set, and about 20k of those miles were heavy towing. There was still about 4-5/32" of tread left, but I didn't want to go through this winter with that little tread.

According to the Tire Rack site, "Wrangler DuraTrac light truck tires are branded with the three-peak mountain/snowflake symbol (3PMSF) to identify they meet the industry's severe snow service standards."

All I know is that they make the truck just about unstoppable in bad weather - snow, rain, etc. I bought them first and foremost for winter driving, not caring about how long they'd last. The fact that they lasted as long as they did, considering the life/duty cycle they've seen, was a pleasant surprise.

Funny story - we were down in Gulf Shores a few winters ago. My neighbor comes up to me and asks me about the "snow tires" on my truck. He couldn't believe I run them year round.

[crosscheck]

brulaz wrote:

crosscheck wrote:

...
I have read conflicting reports about performance of studded vs non- studded winter tires on wet and dry asphalt. A 2015 Norwegian study shows that because non - studded winter tires use softer rubber compounds and more siping than studded snows for similar performance on ice( never better), the surface of the tire collapses when hard braked on wet and dry road surfaces making them perform with poorer results than the slightly harder rubber, less siped studded snows. (2015 NAF winter tire test).

Dave

Interesting. And it makes sense.

But my understanding is that the Nokian Hakkapelitta LT2 with or without studs is the same tire, same rubber, same sipes & tread design? And if you believe the KAL tire store test results, the unstudded has better Winter cornering and braking on dry and wet pavement. But that's admittedly not much of a test.

There's not a huge selection selection of winter only tires out there in truck sizes and weight categories. And comparisons are even more rare. So I suspect we're mostly guessing about this stuff.

The Norwegian study used SUV and passenger car not truck tires in their results. I think the OP has to do the research and come to their own conclusion.

Non -studded winter tire traction has come a long way in the last 30 years and maybe will replace studded tires some day. Until that time, I will run top of the line studded snow tires when that unexpected section of black ice or freezing rain on the road surface makes driving a matter of life or death.

[brulaz]

crosscheck wrote:

...
I have read conflicting reports about performance of studded vs non- studded winter tires on wet and dry asphalt. A 2015 Norwegian study shows that because non - studded winter tires use softer rubber compounds and more siping than studded snows for similar performance on ice( never better), the surface of the tire collapses when hard braked on wet and dry road surfaces making them perform with poorer results than the slightly harder rubber, less siped studded snows. (2015 NAF winter tire test).

Dave

Interesting. And it makes sense.

But my understanding is that the Nokian Hakkapelitta LT2 with or without studs is the same tire, same rubber, same sipes & tread design? And if you believe the KAL tire store test results, the unstudded has better Winter cornering and braking on dry and wet pavement. But that's admittedly not much of a test.

There's not a huge selection selection of winter only tires out there in truck sizes and weight categories. And comparisons are even more rare. So I suspect we're mostly guessing about this stuff.

[freetheheal]

There is a lot of great info being discussed. I'm only putting on maybe 8,000 miles in the winter so maybe a dedicated snow is not a bad choice as I can swap them easily if I don't need them.

[crosscheck]

brulaz wrote:

freetheheal wrote:

crosscheck wrote:

freetheheal wrote:

crosscheck wrote:
I run studded Cooper M +S on my F 350 throughout the winter. Tow the TT a few times up ski hills. Good traction but get only maybe 2-3 years out of them. Hakkapelitta LT2 studded 275 R 70 18 that is rated for close to 3700lbs are something that I would consider next time. Have double the studs compared to Cooper. Just installed Hakkipelitta 9 studded on my wife's vehicle and have had great results.

We live 5 months up in ski resort. Lots of snow/ice.

Dave

Thanks Dave. Are they squishy feeling or squirmy on the road? Another concern is the soft compound. I've heard a lot of bad things about the Duratracs from guys who tow with them just because of how soft they are.

And how many miles are 2-3 years?

The Coopers are not squishy or squirmy but I don,t pull the loads that you do. At a guess, I get maybe 25,000 miles before replacement.

I am a studded tire guy for winter driving. I wonder if some of the problems you had on your winter trip to Canada was partly to do with lack of studs on icy mountain roads?

Dave

That could have been part of the problem. A couple times I got stuck the snow was really heavy and slushy too.

Heavy wet snow and slush packs down into wet ice under the weight of your truck. Really slippery stuff. Does sound like you will want dedicated winter tires for those trips up north.

Not sure about studded though. Depends upon how much dry pavement driving you will be doing on that trip. Studded tires are not as good as unstudded on dry pavement. Great on ice and hard packed snow. In my tire size the Nokian Hakkapelitta LT2 (and others) is available both studded and not.

On the other hand, have you considered chains? Perhaps a year-round AT tire with the 3 peak snowflake to get to the mountain pass, and chains for when the hills and snow get really bad?

I have read conflicting reports about performance of studded vs non- studded winter tires on wet and dry asphalt. A 2015 Norwegian study shows that because non - studded winter tires use softer rubber compounds and more siping than studded snows for similar performance on ice( never better), the surface of the tire collapses when hard braked on wet and dry road surfaces making them perform with poorer results than the slightly harder rubber, less siped studded snows. (2015 NAF winter tire test).

Dave

[brulaz]

freetheheal wrote:

crosscheck wrote:

freetheheal wrote:

crosscheck wrote:
I run studded Cooper M +S on my F 350 throughout the winter. Tow the TT a few times up ski hills. Good traction but get only maybe 2-3 years out of them. Hakkapelitta LT2 studded 275 R 70 18 that is rated for close to 3700lbs are something that I would consider next time. Have double the studs compared to Cooper. Just installed Hakkipelitta 9 studded on my wife's vehicle and have had great results.

We live 5 months up in ski resort. Lots of snow/ice.

Dave

Thanks Dave. Are they squishy feeling or squirmy on the road? Another concern is the soft compound. I've heard a lot of bad things about the Duratracs from guys who tow with them just because of how soft they are.

And how many miles are 2-3 years?

The Coopers are not squishy or squirmy but I don,t pull the loads that you do. At a guess, I get maybe 25,000 miles before replacement.

I am a studded tire guy for winter driving. I wonder if some of the problems you had on your winter trip to Canada was partly to do with lack of studs on icy mountain roads?

Dave

That could have been part of the problem. A couple times I got stuck the snow was really heavy and slushy too.

Heavy wet snow and slush packs down into wet ice under the weight of your truck. Really slippery stuff. Does sound like you will want dedicated winter tires for those trips up north.

Not sure about studded though. Depends upon how much dry pavement driving you will be doing on that trip. Studded tires are not as good as unstudded on dry pavement. Great on ice and hard packed snow. In my tire size the Nokian Hakkapelitta LT2 (and others) is available both studded and not.

On the other hand, have you considered chains? Perhaps a year-round AT tire with the 3 peak snowflake to get to the mountain pass, and chains for when the hills and snow get really bad?

[ksss]

Grit dog wrote:

freetheheal wrote:

ksss wrote:
I run the EXO Grapplers on my pickup. I really like the tire. I live about 90 miles from Yellowstone to give you an idea of the weather we have here in the Winter. Really a good tire. When they wear down to under 50% I have them siped again. They wear well and really bite.

Thanks for your input. That's the tire I had my mind set on before thinking about maybe going to a dedicated snow tire. And I have not found much info on that tire from people who run them on 3/4 ton and larger pickups as well as who tow with them. Do they do a good job for you towing in the winter?

The key to what ksss said was having them siped. I'd never done that until a few years ago and it makes a huge difference.
On the truck in my sig with a grabby clutch, no traction control and no torque management with around 1000ft lbs on tap, they grab very well. Just spent a couple days up here misc driving with my work truck 1500 Silverado with new Toyo ATs and the Dodge with siped cheapo Firestone mudders. Slick snot snow/packed and slush. The otherwise useless mudders are twice the tire as the ATs side by side.
Plus unloaded normal driving on dry roads you won't really see increased tire wear like with snow tires.
Don't mean to sound like a tire siping fanboy but I kinda am. It works. Typically on a heavy truck, I'll only do the center 2 or 3 rows of treads and leave the outer rows in tact. I believe that helps with tire life and handling.

The EXO doesn't need sipping until you get down to the tread stiffener that runs through the center of the tire. I looked at my new EXO's and the stiffer shows up at about the last third of the tread. My first set went around 50K, I could have gotten more but I was going into Winter and so I replaced them. My last set I pulled off because I went with a bigger tire 285-70-18 as opposed to the 275's I had run prior. That set would go to 50-60K as well. I have been pulling 30K combined in heavy snow in Island Park, Idaho this Winter. The tire cleans out well and it grips really well in deep snow. The truck stays planted on icy/snow packed roads. Since I spend most of the time on snow packed roads, that is why as the tire gets in to the stiffener that I sipe them.

[blt2ski]

grit dog,

many tire dealers that sipe, will not do the outer treads, only the middle tread area. Yes I do agree, that if a given tire does not have a lot of built in micro sipes, this added siping does help the tires gain or add traction in many places.
The toyo proxy tires on spouses ML320 have been siped. Major difference in handling and traction siped vs not siped.
I've also noticed this in my Navistar with the typically a 5 rib hwy in the front, the steering handling and tracking is better when the tires are siped, vs not.
On the other hand, a tire that has many micro sipes built into it at the factory, adding the sipes does not IMHO, always pay for itself, in better handling. Its harder to tell the difference in other words. So why pay the money to do so.

marty

[Grit_dog]

freetheheal wrote:

ksss wrote:
I run the EXO Grapplers on my pickup. I really like the tire. I live about 90 miles from Yellowstone to give you an idea of the weather we have here in the Winter. Really a good tire. When they wear down to under 50% I have them siped again. They wear well and really bite.

Thanks for your input. That's the tire I had my mind set on before thinking about maybe going to a dedicated snow tire. And I have not found much info on that tire from people who run them on 3/4 ton and larger pickups as well as who tow with them. Do they do a good job for you towing in the winter?

The key to what ksss said was having them siped. I'd never done that until a few years ago and it makes a huge difference.
On the truck in my sig with a grabby clutch, no traction control and no torque management with around 1000ft lbs on tap, they grab very well. Just spent a couple days up here misc driving with my work truck 1500 Silverado with new Toyo ATs and the Dodge with siped cheapo Firestone mudders. Slick snot snow/packed and slush. The otherwise useless mudders are twice the tire as the ATs side by side.
Plus unloaded normal driving on dry roads you won't really see increased tire wear like with snow tires.
Don't mean to sound like a tire siping fanboy but I kinda am. It works. Typically on a heavy truck, I'll only do the center 2 or 3 rows of treads and leave the outer rows in tact. I believe that helps with tire life and handling.

[freetheheal]

ksss wrote:
I run the EXO Grapplers on my pickup. I really like the tire. I live about 90 miles from Yellowstone to give you an idea of the weather we have here in the Winter. Really a good tire. When they wear down to under 50% I have them siped again. They wear well and really bite.

Thanks for your input. That's the tire I had my mind set on before thinking about maybe going to a dedicated snow tire. And I have not found much info on that tire from people who run them on 3/4 ton and larger pickups as well as who tow with them. Do they do a good job for you towing in the winter?

[ksss]

I run the EXO Grapplers on my pickup. I really like the tire. I live about 90 miles from Yellowstone to give you an idea of the weather we have here in the Winter. Really a good tire. When they wear down to under 50% I have them siped again. They wear well and really bite.

[mkirsch]

freetheheal wrote:
My concern is the tire being soft and wearing out quickly.

That's how snow tires are. You can either have hard long-wearing tires and no traction on snow and ice, or soft quick-wearing tires and great traction on snow and ice.

Personally I would prefer the latter especially when towing.