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V-10 Excursion missing; no code or pending code

jspringator
Explorer
Explorer
My 2001 X V-10 is missing (stuttering) at 1,500 RPM (or below) under load. Not setting a code or pending code. I have replaced 2 coilpacks and plugs in the last month, so I know about coils. It always sets pending codes. I do have a 5 star tuner set in 87 economy.

I'm thinking a heavy dose of Seafoam.

Any other ideas?
Jim & Sherri
02 Winnebago Sightseer 27c Class A;
"Scout" Springer Spaniel, gone but not forgotten;
"Boo" Chocolate Labradoodle.
45 REPLIES 45

jspringator
Explorer
Explorer
I never noticed anything. I found it quite by accident. I got a new battery at Walmart, and they replaced the - clamp with a painted clamp. This was so bad it kept setting a transmission output code. It stalled and ran poorly. FTE and the scantool both said the most likely cause was a bad ground. I started inspecting all the grounds. I replaced the chassis to frame ground, and inspected the - battery to chassis ground wire expecting a problem there. Instead, I discovered the negative clamp paint and surmised that was where the problem was. Bought a lead clamp and installed it in the dark with a head mounted flashlight while it was snowing. If I hadn't had the problem with the painted clamp I may have never found it. If Walmart had installed a lead or brass connector, it would have solved the problem but I may never have figured out what the problem was. Bad grounds cause all kinds of weird problems.
Jim & Sherri
02 Winnebago Sightseer 27c Class A;
"Scout" Springer Spaniel, gone but not forgotten;
"Boo" Chocolate Labradoodle.

Wes_Tausend
Explorer
Explorer
jspringator wrote:
UPDATE: Ended up the problem was a badly corroded negative battery terminal.


Great... you seemed to have found it.

Did the lights dim at idle? It seems unreal that the ignition would be that sensitive to moderately low voltage. As an example, the alternator easily keeps up at 13.8vdc idle unless accessories draw too much. So did the truck run worse depending on large items like headlights, blower, AC being on?

There is a lot of misinformation out there. For example the website http://www.magnecor.com/magnecor1/cop/fordv8v10.htm states that, "Once the boot fails ignition coil failure is not far behind since it becomes overloaded by the excessive voltage grounding out on the cylinder head.". That is not true, a coil doesn't fail because of grounding out of a boot. The ignition charge might leak to ground but as long as it has somewhere to go there is not a "damage" problem.

The reasoning is the way that all ignition coils work. They usually work by a collapsing magnetic field that "generates" a high voltage within the windings (some work by the field still moving outward, but it must move). The ignition voltage builds up only until it can jump a path to ground, hopefully through the spark plug. So the most elaborate, expensive, fancy ignition module in the world will fire (jump the gap) at exactly the same voltage in the same system conditions. If there is no suitable path, the internal voltage can build up so high it begans to break down the insulating quality of the coil wire coatings (or old time spark plug wires, i.e. the weak link).

Once a spark begans to burn through insulation it quickly forms a leaky carbon path that now shorts the coil or destroys solid state devices in newer CD type ignitions. This only gets worse as the inner spark discharge creates heat at the internal spark point, thereby causing the coil to continue failure even when new plugs (with proper gaps) are installed. Or the "transistor" is permanently blown by high volt peaks. This is the primary reason one should never ever let modern solid state type ignitions fire into nowhere, something we used to get away with back in the day of mechanical point distributors. Therefore it is generally ok, and least damaging to short spark to ground rather than prevent it jumping.

One other principle that ignitions have always operated with, is that spark has a difficult time firing through pure compressed air, the higher the compression the worse. So most misfires occur when the throttle is wide open at low rpm and the maximum amount of air cylinder filling can occur. On the other hand at moderate speeds and power demand, the pistons are essentially compressing a partial vacuum which is to say the spark need jump through very little insulating air which it can easily do. As an example, the easiest way for electrons (spark) to jump a gap is found in the obsolete vacuum tubes. As these ancient tubes filled over time with insulating air leaks, or shorted from waste gas vapor from eroded metal grid compounds etc, they conducted less and less planned electricity until the intended circuit path failed to rule... until a clean new vacuum tube was installed.

But I said spark has difficulty firing through pure compressed air. It just so happens that gasoline vapor enhances electrical conduction. So even when the engine is working with high compression, the spark will fire when reasonable fuel is available. During cold weather extra fuel may be needed to promote not just burn but also spark conduction. By the same token a weak injector can cause a spark misfire because of lack of conducting spark path. So out of three things for proper cylinder firing, two may be missing. Enough fuel and subsequently, suitable spark path. The third, compression may be ok... or maybe not.

The third item for proper cylinder firing is compression. I do suspect that engines not used often may develop rusty valve stems. Once valves do this, they wear the guides, then become imprecisely seated. During cranking and low speeds they may not seal as well each and every cycle, which can cause erratic compression. Cylinder walls also can gather rust while parked for long periods. Modern gas engines do not ordinarily leave much oil residue on these surfaces. Diesel is a little better. So even if one has proper ignition and fuel, the engine may run erratically at low speeds because the third requirement for firing is unreliable... that of compression. This problem may show up in some dealship computer testing, or an actual mechanical compression test. Nobody like to pull plugs on these hard-to-service engines though.

Basically, unless spark is actually being released somewhere, the voltage is building above safe design levels and the coil is in danger of burning through either internal insulation or a solid state device. This is the primary reason coils finally fail after worn spark plugs develop large, hard-to-fire gaps. They do keep firing beyond design limits, but it is hard on them, and worn, widened-gap plugs should be changed before ignition voltage levels reach damaging levels. And barring frequent driving, long term engine storage begs that an engine be mothballed with extra protective oil added to the cylinders... unless it's already an oil-burner.


Wes
...
Days spent camping are not subtracted from one's total.
- 2019 Leprechaun 311FS Class C
- Linda, Wes and Quincy the Standard Brown Poodle

jspringator
Explorer
Explorer
UPDATE: Ended up the problem was a badly corroded negative battery terminal.
Jim & Sherri
02 Winnebago Sightseer 27c Class A;
"Scout" Springer Spaniel, gone but not forgotten;
"Boo" Chocolate Labradoodle.

jspringator
Explorer
Explorer
No, darn it, it still misses. Off to the shop.
Jim & Sherri
02 Winnebago Sightseer 27c Class A;
"Scout" Springer Spaniel, gone but not forgotten;
"Boo" Chocolate Labradoodle.

carringb
Explorer
Explorer
Yes, a discharge battery can affect both spark and fuel mix. Actually had a similar issue when I replaced all my injectors. I had the radio and lights on the whole time. Battery would turn it over when I was done, but it wouldn't even fire. I finally gave up because it was 2am and I had to be at work in 3 hours and it's an 80 mile drive to work, so I called AAA and had the van towed near work.

They put it on a charger, and it fired right up. If the voltage is too low, it makes the injectors squirt instead of spray, and combined with weak spark, the plugs get wet and won't fire.
2000 Ford E450 V10 VAN! 450,000+ miles
2014 ORV really big trailer
2015 Ford Focus ST

jspringator
Explorer
Explorer
Could it be a discharged battery?

I didn't drive it for about a month because it was iced in. Tried to start it, and it missed so bad it wouldn't run. Finally the battery wouldn't turn it over. I recharged the battery with a smart charger. Didn't want to start, but I kept my foot in the throttle to keep it running. Finally is smoothed out and idled normally.

After I warmed it up I tried to get it to miss with a low RPM pull. Didn't miss a lick. I haven't had it on the highway yet, but could the problem have been a low battery? The truck sits a lot because its gas mileage is so bad. The battery turned it over slowly when the problem first presented.
Jim & Sherri
02 Winnebago Sightseer 27c Class A;
"Scout" Springer Spaniel, gone but not forgotten;
"Boo" Chocolate Labradoodle.

Swmpbgy1
Explorer
Explorer
Seasons Greetings!!

I have the same issue with a 2007 Expedition EL with 42000 miles.....Slight miss/hesitation under load.....I've replaced the fuel and air filters as suggested by my dealer.

One thing that I did notice when I took the Expy for a 1300 mile Thankgsgiving trip, when I drove it in heavy rain, the hesitation/buck was much worse. Dry driving it didn't exist hardly at all. Leads me to believe it is an electrical problem??

Jerem0621, I looked at the coils at uneek...what are the differences in the $100 set and the $140 sets????

Swmpbgy1

jspringator
Explorer
Explorer
I'm letting it miss as much as possible to see if it will set a pending code.
Jim & Sherri
02 Winnebago Sightseer 27c Class A;
"Scout" Springer Spaniel, gone but not forgotten;
"Boo" Chocolate Labradoodle.

BurbMan
Explorer II
Explorer II
Any update?

Redsky
Explorer
Explorer
To be safe I would have a garage check for a bad head gasket. This will not show up in the computer codes but the coolant going into the cylinder will affect the spark and make it seem like the engine is running rich or not getting enough spark. Better to catch it before you lose the engine.

jerem0621
Explorer II
Explorer II
I chased the miss down in my old V10 for a long time. I pulled the coils, gapped and replaced the plugs.. still had a miss. Moved the coils around trying to isolate the miss with no luck.

I read on the FTE forum that I could change the boots and springs on the coils and decided that I would. I ordered new boots and springs.... pulled all the coils off and while pulling the old boots and springs off I noticed this....



Upon further inspection 6 out of the 10 coils in my 99 had similar cracks in the body of the coil.

I ended up replacing all 10 coils.

Problem with the miss... solved...

I would suggest pulling the coils and inspecting them for similar cracks.

BTW.. I bought Uneek Supply coils x10 for around $100.00. They had good reviews and really stand behind their product. They worked perfectly and were still on the truck (without a miss) when I sold the truck.

Here is a pic of these aftermarket coils...



If you ever replace the coils, whether Motocraft or aftermarket make sure that the springs inside the coils are firmly seated in the coils before installing them.

Thanks!

Jeremiah
TV-2022 Silverado 2WD
TT - Zinger 270BH
WD Hitch- HaulMaster 1,000 lb Round Bar
Dual Friction bar sway control

It’s Kind of Fun to do the Impossible
~Walt Disney~

dodge_guy
Explorer II
Explorer II
Yep! back then the 3/4 and 1 ton trucks were in their own category when it came to emissions. now it is completely different!
Wife Kim
Son Brandon 17yrs
Daughter Marissa 16yrs
Dog Bailey

12 Forest River Georgetown 350TS Hellwig sway bars, BlueOx TrueCenter stabilizer

13 Ford Explorer Roadmaster Stowmaster 5000, VIP Tow>
A bad day camping is
better than a good day at work!

BurbMan
Explorer II
Explorer II
Interesting, you would think it would be easier to just standardize emissions....

dodge_guy
Explorer II
Explorer II
Mine was sold in IL. anything over 8600 lbs (I think 8601 lbs) in IL did not have to be OBD2 compliant due to the 8900lb GVWR. I think in CA though it had everything necessary for OBD2. and the X with the 5.4 had an 8600lb GVWR and those had full OBD2 compliance. lots of variables that made them have different versions of emissions!
Wife Kim
Son Brandon 17yrs
Daughter Marissa 16yrs
Dog Bailey

12 Forest River Georgetown 350TS Hellwig sway bars, BlueOx TrueCenter stabilizer

13 Ford Explorer Roadmaster Stowmaster 5000, VIP Tow>
A bad day camping is
better than a good day at work!