What the RV Industry needs and how it works.

[OBX-GL]

I haven't posted for a while. Mostly happy trouble free camping has kept me a lurker. Trouble free however must have context, i'm a handy guy. A small insurance claim and having a kid has me assessing future RV decisions. I'm a consumer that does homework, i try not to make emotional decisions. As at the time of my last purchase (2012) i am amazed at how the RV industry rolls, and how little it has evolved.

_to only name three

-still increasing the number of brands, yet offering the same package/options
-all brands offering same quality, and still reliance on dealers to catch defects
-no evolution in construction methods, no evolution in floor-plans, just no evolution.

If only one manufacturer broke from the flock and addressed these points, or even one of these issues, would we not all be a conquest sale ?

I know my comments are nothing new, day to day threads on here touch on this. Just interested in everyones thoughts on the industry as a whole, in one place.

I am questioning hard if RVing is going to continue in my future, I blame the manufacturers for the indecision. I'm overwhelmed at the quality and volume of options offering so little choice.

[dannko]

theoldwizard1 wrote:

BurbMan wrote:
One mfr is now offering a 3 year warranty on all new towable units.

Please give us a name !

Jayco brags about their 2 year warranty. It does not cover any of the appliances or awning. Hardly "bumper-to-bumper".

ATC has 3 yr warranty

[OBX-GL]

Had a conversation today with an "RV industry insider", not a dealer. His comment was there is little manufacturer interest in upper end travel trailers. They are stretched to build units as they exist at market volume demands. He also suggested innovation and industry restructuring won't likely be seen till the next market slow down.

IMO if we really want to see change sooner than later stop opening your wallets.

[theoldwizard1]

BurbMan wrote:
One mfr is now offering a 3 year warranty on all new towable units.

Please give us a name !

Jayco brags about their 2 year warranty. It does not cover any of the appliances or awning. Hardly "bumper-to-bumper".

[theoldwizard1]

hvac wrote:
I gave up on traditional folks. Bought a ATC 28 front bedroom with a 5.5 onan. No toys. Garage converted to a living room. All metal. No slide. Its been perfect and I see no reason for future surprises.

Something I would consider, but SWMBO would never go for it.

[gwh1bass]

SidecarFlip wrote:
Houses are the same. We had a contractor build a deck and this fall, I had to replace the steps. I'm surprised they never fell off as at least 50% of the deck screws missed the mark and were holding nothing but air....

Wasn't 'Amish' built either...lol

Gotta agree here. The circa 1978 built home I own had exterior wall insulation stopped a foot above the floor wall plate, HVAC duct runs not connected to room registers, totally illegal wirinng, etc. Now I have remodeled 75% of the interior space with the help of friends, Google and YouTube. Thankful the structural framing is good. Where were the building inspectors during construction?

My camper isn't much better. Structural frame all seems good, but interior craftsmanship not so much. Screws missing supporting structure, Staples missing the 2 pieces they're supposed to connect, outlets not even close to being installed plumb, etc.

My problem is not keeping up with caulking on a flexing structure. Everything needs constant maintenance.

[profdant139]

BurbMan, your point about innovation is right on target. My 2003 Shadow Cruiser had an aluminum skin, wooden frame, and fiberglass insulation between the studs. My 2012 Fun Finder (almost the same unit) has a fiberglass skin, aluminum frame, and thick styrofoam on all six sides, sandwiched between the layers. A huge improvement in insulation from noise and temperature, far more durable and rugged.

[BurbMan]

If you want to know what's going on in the industry, subscribe to RV Business magazine. I have been a subscriber since I started offering my consulting services to the RV industry.

First off, there is a tremendous level of innovation today in the industry. One mfr is now offering a 3 year warranty on all new towable units. More mfrs are now adding staff and floor space to do PDIs at the plant instead of making the dealer responsible for it, so problems get fixed quicker and dealers have less headaches delivering trouble-free units to their customers.

You cannot compare RVs to cars, appliances or anything else for that matter. The demand for RVs is VERY elastic, meaning that it's a completely discretionary purchase. Mfrs need to balance hi-tech with a price point, consumers are only willing to spend so much for a "toy". The majority of towables buyers are families with kids, once you get into the hi-end bus market, price takes a back seat to luxury.

Elastic demand also means that once the economy slows down, the RV purchase is the first thing to get chopped. Mfrs, dealers, and CG owners that have been around for a while know that you must be cautious in boom years if you want to survive the bust years. Coming off of the biggest bust in 2008, the camping industry is now in its biggest boom period....ever.

You want a quality build with attention to detail, then you're in the $40-50k market for a towable. If you are shopping $20-30k for a towable brand new, then expect some compromises in either build quality or features. There's no magic formula here. Go take a factory tour and see what goes into making a trailer and you'll leave wondering how they can even afford to make a trailer for $20-30k, and understand why they are made the way they are.

[profdant139]

Sidecar, I think that is a very perceptive comment. The industry has a finite capacity. Sales are booming, I think because the baby boomers are retiring and buying RVs. So there is no need or ability to expand the market by seeking out higher-end buyers.

The egg trailers, by the way, do have some high end units -- like Escape and Oliver. But they are the exception.

[SidecarFlip]

With an RV, robotics play no part. Cannot assemble one with CNC guided robots.

One thing I see is that RIVA condones the current atmosphere (I subscribe to the industry publications. RIVA spends all it's time / effort on grooming industry executives and little on mandating any product improvement.

I agree 100%. When the market slows down (and it will because the market is economy driven and economics is always cyclical), RV builders will then engage in building a better product instead of just building quantity.

Right now is boom time. The future may be bust time.

Not sure if the vast majority is happy with the product, they accept the product for what it is. Acceptance and contentment are 2 different animals.

[rbpru]

Since we are all rambling on, it is safe to say that the current TT and 5ver market is not changing because it has no reason to change.

Thor and FR have no incentive to drop brand names and jeopardize customer loyalty when they can sell all they make.

Foreign competition sees no future in a market that will not pay for added quality and who's multiple model line does not lend itself to robotics.

Labor force, Amish or not are paid for parts out the door.

The vast majority of the consumer base is happy with the product. They might like a yacht but the bass boat gets the job done.

When the market sales slow then we may see some changes.

[gmw_photos]

Atlee wrote:
Then your Jayco is built differently than my Jayco 23RB. Part of the wheel well is exposed inside my trailer with nothing covering it,
except a piece of carpet. If it were stepped on, it would totally bend out of shape. It has no strength.

gmw photos wrote:


Yes, the galv sheet above the wheels under my Funfinder is pretty thin. It appears to be 1/32" ( 22 gauge ), so it's only one third the thickness of what Westend used in his Starcraft rebuild. Still, it's likely better than nothing at all in the event of a tire coming apart.
It's attached flush to the 5/8" plywood that is the floor, so that makes it pretty stiff.
So far I have not tested out that feature on this trailer.

I never looked really closely at a Jayco when I was shopping because at the time they didn't have a floorplan I liked. I will say my Funfinder ( by Cruiser ) is pretty much a mixed bag when it comes to how it was assembled. But I expected that.
The fundamentals are solid enough. The frame is designed adequately and welded pretty well, etc. Even though it is just a 4100 pound trailer ( loaded ), it has tandem axles.

So it was mostly as case of fixing sloppy assembly inside. Things like stripped screws holding cabinet doors, trim that was loose, etc.

Another thing they don't do is there was not enough electrical outlets. I ran four more so I can plug my PC and a table lamp on the dinette(workstation) table, and one in the galley for the coffee maker. I've added a 4 port USB charging outlet, re-routed cable feed for the sat dish ( I re-located the TV set ) and added a 120V outlet there also for the TV and sat recv.

The roof seam where the front wall meets the roof only had dicor added as far in as they apparently could reach from a ladder at each side. I needed to get on the roof to reach the center part of it. Would it have leaked ? Maybe, maybe not, because there is butyl tape under that trim also. Still, if they are going to add caulk to a seam, they should do it all. I caulked it as soon as I got it home.

All this is my point in these things: some assembly required. Like buying something at Ikea, only an RV is a lot more fun. You gotta like working on these things for the experience to go well.

[SidecarFlip]

Ralph Cramden wrote:

Atlee wrote:
Old world Amish craftsmanship, my buttocks. That so called Amish craftsmanship doesn't exist, except on an Amish farm. Certainly doesn't exist in a Jayco plant. There, the Amish workers are just like any worker off the street.


Complete as many units as possible in as short a time as possible. And don't be worrying about "attention to detail".

myredracer wrote:
Thor now owns a number of TT brands like Jayco, Keystone, Airstream and KZ as listed here.

About KZ, they say: K-Z produces several widely recognized brands of towable RVs and is focused on becoming the most innovative RV company in the world. Constant critique and a culture of open, curious minds drives K-Z toward new and better ideas every day.

And on Jayco, Thor says: Jayco blends Old World Amish craftsmanship with innovative technology. Every Jayco RV made today is a reflection of the original vision: to make it easier for families to explore and relax together.

Sounds very impressive!! Note the use of the words "innovative" and "craftsmanship". What more could you possibly want?? :R

Your buttocks and my buttocks.

We have used Amish framing crews on multi family residential construction. They can supply the numbers of workers to meet schedules but they are complete hacks. They'll cut every corner possible and slap things together without regard to plumb, level, or square. They also search for every penny they can attempt to get as an extra and do nothing over and above contract. It's totally about the money, not any craftsmanship or pride. Now if they were building for the Amish it's another story. If you need a barn where the hay and straw do not care if the corners are plumb, call them.

Too bad I can't post Amish jokes on here... I have some doozey's.....:B

[SidecarFlip]

Houses are the same. We had a contractor build a deck and this fall, I had to replace the steps. I'm surprised they never fell off as at least 50% of the deck screws missed the mark and were holding nothing but air....

Wasn't 'Amish' built either...lol

[subcamper]

I would be happy with the materials on my Rockwood 8318SS if the assembly quality wasn't so bad.

The rear cap was ready to come off because the screws on one side all missed the support.

The big front window leakerd because the cutout for it was cut freehand and the frame didn't cover a small section at the bottom.

etc, etc.

The operator-dependent assembly process results in one unit that has most of the fasteners properly installed and then the next unit has fasteners that mostly miss the target. That's why some people don't have problems and some do with the same model.

The important stuff is hidden, so looking over the trailer carefully rarely uncovers poor assembly, unless its so bad that parts have big gaps or misaligned sections.

It really wouldn't cost a huge amount more to have some templates, guides and jigs for the assembler. EVERY car of the same model has the fasteners in the exact same place because they don't rely on "eyeballing it". A trailer is made more like a house than a car. Except that the trailer, unlike a house, travels down the road and shakes apart anything poorly assembled.

Steve