Mike_Stanbro
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Joined Jun 29, 2007
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Re: Very Disappointed with New Keystone Alpine
Again, this is not a speed issue. Quality is a culture. A bad worker doesn’t automatically get better when they do it slower. I agree with the above statement. Quality is a culture and it comes from the very top of the company. I am an electronics engineer and I have worked for 13 companies over 40 years. In the later years, I was a contractor and I worked short-duration jobs for many different companies. As I was moving around a lot, I could quickly sense the differences in attitudes about quality versus time and cost. It only took a week or two to get a feel for how things were run. Companies that specialized in military and aerospace products always focused on quality while consumer product companies generally focused on cost and time to market. While I understand that RVs are price sensitive, that there are boom and bust periods in the industry, and that money is only made during the boom times, I simply do not understand or condone the total disregard for basic principles of workmanship. Case in point is the debris under the TPO membrane on my brand new Keystone Alpine. It is obvious that the decking was not cleaned off before the membrane was laid down. There are so many staples, screws, and wood chips under it that I was shocked when I discovered it. I feel fairly certain that this total disregard for quality comes from the top of Keystone as this is a quote from their owners manual: "Because of the manufacturing process, air pickets and/or visible spots may be seen in the roof material. These visible spots can be caused by debris (wood, staples, screws, etc.) that are between the roof material and decking or by imperfections occurring during the roof material manufacture. In most cases, these are considered cosmetic in nature and seldom require any corrective action." It is their "manufacturing process" to leave word, staples, and screws on the decking. How long does it take to sweep or vacuum the decking of a trailer? Is the roof not one of the most critical areas of an RV's life expectancy? If you were building RVs, wouldn't you want to ensure that the roof was well manufactured and that it would not develop leaks after the owner walked on it? This is the same company that manufactures the Montana brand that is touted as the most popular brand of 5th wheel on the market. I am told that Alpines are manufactured on the same assembly line as Montana. It makes sense as they are the two luxury brands from Keystone and they have similar floor plans. So luxury to Keystone does not in any way imply quality. I *assumed* it did. My mistake. In summary, the notion that lazy workers are the problem with the poor quality of RVs is not my view of things. I firmly believe that quality is driven from the top of any company and that lack of quality, while not a deliberate outcome, is a conscious decision by a company to save on manufacturing costs. The RV industry is in a boom time and Keystone is making as much money as it can while it can. Does it go as high as the parent company Thor? I suspect so but obviously have no way of knowing.1.2KViews0likes0CommentsRe: Very Disappointed with New Keystone Alpine
justme wrote: All mfg's have a percentage junk--- The RV industry needs a competitor like Japan that actually forced the American automobile industry build better products. Meanwhile a very detail oriented PDI is the only real defense one has to obtain an RV they will be happy with. NEVER finalize a sale until a very detail oriented PDI is completed and any problem found is corrected to expectation. Otherwise simply walk away and find another dealer. If you are unable to do a proper PDI higher some one who knows what to check for. Nice words, and generally good advice, but it didn’t catch all the things wrong with the Alpine I just purchased. I did an extensive PDI and caught several things, one of which was major (read my original post and look for the part about the melted wire). In my case, the debris under the roof was not visible until the sun came out 2 days after taking delivery. It was only then that the membrane relaxed enough that the staples, screws, and wood clips between the decking and membrane became apparent. I did an inspection of the roof and saw nothing out of the ordinary on the day of the PDI.. Also, the scuff on the vinyl floor did not occur until the slide went in and out a few times during my travels. It was then that I found the piece of light fixture hardware trapped under the slide that had rattled loose during transport from the factory to the dealer. More parts rattled loose on my travels. Everything on that light fixture needs to have thread locked applied at the factory. I saw at least two other Alpines on dealer lots when I was shopping around that had pieces missing from that light fixture. So, this is a recurring issue and should be caught by feedback from the dealers and customers. The notion of “continuous improvement” seems to be lost on Keystone. Oh, and then there was the split hydraulic hose snd broken ceiling fan blade that occurred on the trip to/from the factory to show them the issues with the roof. I rate those failures as “infant mortality” as opposed to poor QA, but when combined with the other stuff, it makes my new-owner experience rather dismal. Read the horror story in the Toy Hauler forum regarding the issues underneath the frame of a Keystone product that no PDI would ever catch. So, while an extensive PDI is well advised, it is not going to catch serious problems with the structure and integrity of the unit. Only the factory can ensure that things beneath covered areas are well built. How many poor plumbing or electrical jobs can be found during a PDI? Bad welds on the frame or superstructure? What about the screws with their heads twisted off that get glued down with RTV just to look OK? I have found MANY of those in the five RVs that I have owned, including this new Alpine. Just to be clear, my major gripe about this new Alpine is the debris under the roof membrane. I plan to install solar panels and a satellite antenna. Walking around on the roof during installation and every few months to clean the solar panels is going to do irreparable damage. I wanted Keystone to replace the roof. I towed the trailer to the factory to show them how bad it was. They said it was “acceptable quality” and even state in their owner’s manual that staples, screws, and wood chips under the membrane is a “normal part of the manufacturing process”. Sorry, but that is **** construction. Not cleaning off the roof before laying down the membrane is just so wrong I can’t imagine how anyone could allow it. I would be embarrassed to be a worker at Keystone and operate under those principles.358Views0likes0CommentsRe: Keystone Carbon water tank leak - OMG poor quality!!!
Wow, your story tops mine. See my Keystone story here: Very Dissappointed with New Keystone Alpine There is no point going to the factory, they will not repair it there. I speak from experience. Calling is no help either, they will tell you to open a warranty claim through a dealer. They will listen to your problems and take notes but will only review your claims via a dealer. It is my impression that Keystone is too big to care these days. Since the latest RV boom, they are focused on throughput and quality is far down on their priority list.419Views0likes0CommentsRe: Very Disappointed with New Keystone Alpine
newman fulltimer wrote: Why did you notcatch this or some of this in your pdi and not accept the trailer? The transport from the factory to the dealer was done in cold weather. When I took delivery of the unit it was just starting to warm up. The debris under the roof did not appear until it sat in the hot sun for a few days and the roof membrane relaxed enough to conform to the many objects under it. In other words, I did not see it until after I signed for the trailer. I think the scuffed vinyl floor occurred after I made the slides go in and out a few times during my travels. I only found the piece of light fixture hardware under the slide after the scuff became obvious and I got down and looked with a flashlight. The burned wire and much of the other stuff was found during my PDI. The broken ceiling fan blade and split hydraulic hose happened on my trip home from the factory to talk to Keystone about my disappointment with the roof. Here is something I consider interesting -- I just read this in the "Keystone RV Company Owners Manual" dated 4/1/2017 under the subtitle Roof on page 79: Because of the manufacturing process, air pickets and/or visible spots may be seen in the roof material. These visible spots can be caused by debris (wood, staples, screws, etc.) that are between the roof material and decking or by imperfections occurring during the roof material manufacture. In most cases, these are considered cosmetic in nature and seldom require any corrective action. Based on the above, I infer that leaving debris on the decking before laying down the TPO membrane is considered standard manufacturing practice by Keystone. To me, that says a lot about their concern for quality versus the time (cost) to manufacture the unit.438Views0likes0CommentsVery Disappointed with New Keystone Alpine
We just purchased a 2018 Alpine 3400RS. We custom ordered it as we wanted full body paint, a generator, and dual-pane windows. I took delivery two weeks ago. This is my fifth RV so I am no stranger to the issues one encounters with a new RV. Unfortunately this one has a remarkable number of problems and I am very disappointed with the quantity of them and the seriousness of a few: 1) The TPO roof membrane has numerous sharp objects under it that will eventually protrude through it (staples, screws, wood chips, etc.). It appears that the roof was not cleaned before the membrane was stretched over the decking material. I towed the trailer to the Keystone factor in Indiana (2000 miles) and showed the roof to the Customer Support Manager. I was told Keystone will do nothing about it. If it leaks within the warranty period, they will evaluate it then. Which means what -- patches where the objects poke through? - UGH! I wanted them to install a new roof at the factory. After being told by the Customer Support Manager that this was considered "acceptable build quality" I was furious. Had I known this was their position, I would not have taken delivery of the trailer. I get up on my RV roof a least once a year to clean and put down UV inhibitor. I also plan to install solar panels and will need to clean them off periodically to maintain peak performance. It will be difficult if not impossible to walk on the roof without stepping on an area where one of those sharp objects is poking upwards. It will be no time before holes form. To be blunt, I'm pissed. 2) The power for the emergency breakaway circuit was wired without a fuse or circuit breaker and the hot wire of the breakaway switch was installed such that it chafed between the front cap and the pin box. It eventually shorted to the pin box which is chassis ground. That wire got extremely hot and melted all of the insulation on that wire, melted the split-loom tubing it was routed in, and melted against the other wires in the loom. It was a #16 wire, wired directly from the battery to the hot side of the breakaway switch. The brake wires on the switched side of the switch are #12 and there are two of them. The current draw on that circuit is over 15A. A #16 wire is too small for that current and that it was wired with no over-current protection is unbelievable. Why it did not burn up all the wires in that loom, or the entire trailer when it shorted to the chassis is a mystery. Built to RVIA standards? I think not. 3) A hydraulic line on the right-front jack split and is leaking fluid. 4) The light fixture over the kitchen island lost pieces of its hardware due to vibration and the pieces got under the driver-side slide during transit from the factory to the dealer. When the slide went out, the pieces trapped under the slide damaged the vinyl flooring. Not sure how that is going to get fixed as it is sheet material. A whole new floor? Again, the Customer Support Manager made it clear that it would not be done at the factory. How well is that going to turn out if done by a dealer? 5) The bathroom shower has a chip in the gel coat on the floor so that black color from the underlying fiberglass is showing. I don't know if a workman dropped a tool on it or if it is a manufacturing defect. Either way, I was allowed to leave the factory with the chip in it. QA? I am also unsure how that is going to get fixed. 6) One of the ceiling fan blades broke off on the trip home from the Keystone factory, apparently due to road shock. Is that going to be an on-going problem? 7) The rear screws of the drawer slides that support the kitchen drawers were only 3/8" long and screwed into soft pine. They pulled out of the pine and the drawers were dangling from just the front screws when I opened them. 8) The audio cable that runs from the living room TV to the stereo head unit was wired such that audio out from the TV was plugged into the audio out of the head unit (should have gone to audio in). Granted, a minor issue, but it took me a long time to figure out what was wrong and required that I pull the head unit out of the cabinet to trace the wiring. 9) The passenger-side slide is leaving large patches, several feet long, of black marks on the vinyl floor that I scrub away only to have reappear the next time the trailer goes down the road. It seems there is black material on the underside of the slide's leading edge that is rubbing off on the floor due to vibration during travel. In summary, this unit is NOT up to the quality I expected from Keystone. That they did such a poor job on the roof is infuriating. I purchased this Alpine due to the positive things I read about the Alpine brand and Keystone products. To say that I am disappointed is an understatement. The fact that Keystone considers the issues with the roof "acceptable build quality" should be a warning to potential buyers.12KViews0likes63CommentsRe: 12 volt blue ray player
I have been looking into this and just got back from a trip to Frys Electronics. It turns out that all of the Sony BDP-xxxx series blu-ray players run off of 12V. They have the typical 120VAC to 12VDC wall wart adapter. The 12V input jack to the player is a very common type which can be easily found. Just make sure you wire the polarity correctly when you hook it up.372Views0likes0CommentsRe: JENSEN AWM975 STEREO PROBLEM
Geterdone wrote: Now there is nothing...no static, no noise etc....checked all channels again, inside, A and B and outside C channels....When I turned it on the first time that it did not work, only channel A (one speaker of the set) worked....now nothing. I am not experienced enough to do the multimeter checks...I have a Craftsman, and it will do ohms, continuity and resistence... steve Steve, I am an electronics engineer and spend a lot of time troubleshooting systems. This would be my plan: Do the front panel lights and display come on? If not check the fuse. If the fuse is good, check the power plug coming into the back of the unit (remove it from the wall, see below). Try the various input sources like FM radio, CD, weather radio, etc. If all inputs produce no sound output, something is wrong with the electronics or a plug on the back of the unit has become disconnected. To check the plugs on the back of the unit, pull off the rectangular bezel, remove the four screws, and slide the unit out of the wall. Check that all of the plugs are securely attached. "Cycle" the connections a few times by removing and reinserting all the plugs a few times to wipe the contacts of any corrosion. The connectors on that system have inexpensive tin-lead contacts which can develop what is called "fretting corrosion". Cycling the connectors on/off a few times will wipe off any such corrosion. Finally, as old fashioned as it sounds, you might try disconnecting all the wires from the back of the unit and then bang it a few times on the floor to jostle any internal connectors. Drop it from one or two inches from the floor on all sides to impart shock. The electronics will not be hurt by this. Modern electronics can withstand a lot of shock. Connectors are the weakest link in an electronic device. The age-old method of smacking the TV or radio worked as it caused shock to the sockets (connectors) of the vacuum tubes. Be sure to remove any CD/DVD before doing this. If that doesn't do it, the system is dead.1.3KViews1like0CommentsRe: JENSEN AWM975 STEREO PROBLEM
Geterdone wrote: UPDATE: There is no sound on any speaker on CD, or radio...I contacted Jensen and they said to do an ohm,and continuity check on the speakers. I can only get to the one uder the bath sink...will have to take others out of wall...If there is a short, theys said the internal amp goes into prot. mode...not allowing sound. Not sure how to do these tasks but I will try and figure out. As I posted before, if you are hearing static, the speakers are connected and the power amps are working. There is no need to do a continuity check. Sound, be it static or not, does not come from a disconnected speaker. Think about it. Stop, call them back, and tell them that all the speaker connections are OK.1.3KViews0likes0CommentsRe: Installing Torklift GlowSteps on a Lance Camper
kerry4951 wrote: Same system works well on Arctic Fox. Ive been using this method for the past 2 years. Works well when towing. And here I was thinking I had figured something out that no one else had. I swear, I spent the better part of three days searching all the forum archives looking at how other people had mounted their steps. Did you post a picture of your setup before? If so, I sure was not able to find it. I see that the GlowSteps are mounted on the outside of the OEM step brackets such that the just the ends of the clevis pins are bearing the weight. If you switch the long and short sides of the struts like I did, it will likely fit inside the brackets and be that much stronger; however, the OEM step would not fit. I decided I was never going to use the OEM step so that was not a concern for me.500Views0likes0CommentsRe: JENSEN AWM975 STEREO PROBLEM
The fact that the front panel lights up means the power supplies are OK and because you hear static means the power amplifiers are OK too. Something in the front-end of the system is wrong. You didn't say which source (Radio/DVD/Coaxial/iPOD) are you getting the static on. Try a CD or DVD, or plug in an iPhone/iPod to check the other source inputs. If they all make static, something died in the pre-amp section and you will have to replace it or get it serviced. If just the radio makes static, check the antenna both inside and out. Did the antenna on the roof get torn off? If not check the antenna connection going into the back of the unit. It is easy to pull the unit out of the wall to see what is going on behind. Simply pull off the rectangular bezel that clips on around the outside of the unit. You can do it with your fingers or use a screwdriver to help pry it loose. Once that is off, there are four Philips-head screws that hold it to the wall. Take those out and the chassis will easily slip out so you can see behind it. Hope that helps.275Views0likes0Comments
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