jayspi
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Re: Need help figuring out why my rig is overweight
Ralph Cramden wrote: jayspi wrote: ependydad wrote: I'd upgrade the axles. My old rig was not a Grand Design, but another manufacturer who was proud of their "full 12" I-Beam" frame. I was running 1,000 lbs. over GVWR and maxed out on axles (7k axles). After 2 years of fulltiming, I ended up having a buckled frame. If you're going to upgrade the axles, I'd suggest that you also upgrade the cross-member supports between the axles. And regularly inspect the suspension and frame while using it. I trust Grand Design's answer. I specifically asked them if the chassis could carry the extra weight and they said yes. The folks staffing that line really know their stuff. They aren't generic customer service reps. That said, the dealer is going to double check that nothing else needs to be upgraded. He said the springs might need to be upgraded. I also asked him to look into the suspension. Now that's a lot of faith in an RV manufacturer and high quality LCI frames. It may behoove you to at least consider ependy's advice. He has probably put more towing miles on a rig than anyone on this or most other RV boards. That's why I said I'm having the dealer double check...685Views0likes0CommentsRe: Need help figuring out why my rig is overweight
BFL13 wrote: jayspi wrote: BFL13 wrote: Perhaps between Grand Design confirming that trailer with those axles etc would be assigned the new GVWR if built that way originally, and the dealer certifying the new axles etc, were installed, they can get permission from whoever it is, to issue you a new sticker. I didn't know that. That would be awesome. I'll ask them about it. Thanks for letting me know. I don't know that either! Just a suggestion to ask. I have heard that you can get a new GVWR if you pay for an inspector and all that, but I don't know any details or if you can do that in every jurisdiction. I know that here, if you have a "home made" utility trailer, you have to do that to get a suitable GVWR or else they automatically assign a fixed low GVWR to it. Thanks for clarifying, I misread your post :) Either way, thanks for the suggestion. I'll look into it.685Views0likes0CommentsRe: Need help figuring out why my rig is overweight
BFL13 wrote: Perhaps between Grand Design confirming that trailer with those axles etc would be assigned the new GVWR if built that way originally, and the dealer certifying the new axles etc, were installed, they can get permission from whoever it is, to issue you a new sticker. I didn't know that. That would be awesome. I'll ask them about it. Thanks for letting me know.685Views0likes0CommentsRe: Need help figuring out why my rig is overweight
ependydad wrote: I'd upgrade the axles. My old rig was not a Grand Design, but another manufacturer who was proud of their "full 12" I-Beam" frame. I was running 1,000 lbs. over GVWR and maxed out on axles (7k axles). After 2 years of fulltiming, I ended up having a buckled frame. If you're going to upgrade the axles, I'd suggest that you also upgrade the cross-member supports between the axles. And regularly inspect the suspension and frame while using it. I trust Grand Design's answer. I specifically asked them if the chassis could carry the extra weight and they said yes. The folks staffing that line really know their stuff. They aren't generic customer service reps. That said, the dealer is going to double check that nothing else needs to be upgraded. He said the springs might need to be upgraded. I also asked him to look into the suspension.685Views0likes0CommentsRe: Need help figuring out why my rig is overweight
BFL13 wrote: ISTR if you upgrade the axles and tires and whatever, you don't get a new, higher GVWR. There have been threads in the other forums related to all that and what different jurisdictions say about how to get a higher GVWR. There is also something about GVWR in BC's rules if "they" ever wanted to weigh your trailer. ( Mostly they only do commercial trucks, but sometimes they do RVs, I gather.) So putting it all together--- If you are going to Alaska via BC and are over the sticker GVWR that might be a problem, but you have to check, because I cannot confirm what the real story is. Just thought it worth a mention, in case. Meanwhile, it does makes sense to upgrade the axles based on the OP weights alone, where you are over, and are likely to be that way for many future trips. Good point on the GVWR. I understand that you don't get a new GVWR after doing upgrades. It's kind of like adding air bags to a truck to give you more payload capacity. It doesn't change the truck's rating, but in the real world it makes a difference. As far as traveling in the U.S. goes, I'll weigh the rig with the tanks empty and carry that printout with me. I'm not worried about the ability of our truck to safely tow 17,500 pounds. It's rated for almost 30,000 pounds of 5th wheel towing. So carrying the print out from the CAT scales would be purely for covering my rear. Thanks for the tip about B.C. I didn't see them stopping RVs the last times we went to Alaska or Whistler, but I'll look into it before we go up again. I can dump some water through B.C. and fill up in the Yukon if necessary. The last time we went up we had problems getting fresh water since the pipes were still frozen. That shouldn't be an issue this year since we're going up in June.685Views0likes0CommentsRe: Need help figuring out why my rig is overweight
rk911 wrote: your 13,400 is the DRY weight, not the GVWR which is 16,500. your calculations on your fluid are close enough for govt work. I use 8.0-lbs for water and 4.0-lbs for LP but it's a distinction without a difference. you're either using the scales incorrectly (hard to imagine) or you just have more stuff that you realize. if this were me I'd go ahead and have the axles upgraded anyway but before I did that I'd unload everything and re-weigh. that'll give you a baseline weight (we used to call that the 'wet weight'. the weight of an otherwise empty RV with full fresh water, fuel and LP tanks). THAT will answer the question of just how much stuff you have added. I'd have the axle upgrade anyway just cuz. See the latest post I made just a few minutes ago :) Edit: Thanks for the help. I agree that the best thing to do is just upgrade the axles. I explain why in the last post.685Views0likes0CommentsRe: Need help figuring out why my rig is overweight
maillemaker wrote: What isn't helpful are posts questioning why I would have our tanks fully loaded, suggesting that I don't know how much our personal items weigh, or assuming we're rookies. I'm not sure why people automatically make these assumptions when they add nothing to the conversation. Welcome to rv.net. I have said many times before this forum is one of the most hostile "help" forums I have ever encountered. It seems like half the replies want to tell you why you're an idiot. Anyway, I'd believe the scale. If you really want to know how much your rig weighed when you bought it, take everything out of it and go weigh it. Then compare that with what the dealer said it weighed. Steve To be fair, this forum has been extremely helpful in the past. There have been some really helpful answers/suggestions in this thread too. I might just be over-sensitive since we deal with unsolicited advice so much with our vlog :). Anyway, good news and bad news, then more bad news and more good news. The first bit of bad news is that I still don't know why we're 1,000 pounds overweight. At this point I think the weight on the sticker by the propane door is wrong. I explain why below. Here's some good news, though. I called Grand Design and the dealer and got some definite answers. First, Grand Design says that the weight on the sticker by the propane door is the weight as it rolls off the line AFTER all the dealer options are added. If the dealer ordered a generator then the weight on the sticker includes that. Same for an additional A/C, etc. So I called the dealer and he said he didn't add anything after he ordered it. According to the sticker by the propane door, the weight when it rolled off the line was 13,461. That gives us 3,039 pounds of cargo to work with. So here are my calculations. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong: 1303: 157 gallons of water 378: 60 gallons of gasoline 60: 14 gallons of propane = 1,741 pounds 148: Washer/dryer 200: After market cabinet Mattress: 150 = 498 pounds Total = 2,239 pounds 13,461 + 2,239 = 15,700 16,500 (GVWR) - 15,700 = 800 So, we have 800 pounds left over for clothes, food, and miscellaneous items. Incidentally, that's exactly what I said I thought the upper limit of our cargo was in my OP. I based that off the cargo in our last 2 rigs. However, the scales how us at 17,500, so we're still 1,000 pounds off somewhere. I've gone through our rig at least 5 times these last few days, and I just can't come up with that much weight. We've got 1 closet of clothes, 1 cabinet of baby clothes and associated items, some baby toys, 2 pairs of alpine skis, a propane firepit, a few tools, a small bin of camping gear, a small bin of winter clothes, food, and kitchen items. That's it. The only thing I can figure is that the weight Grand Design put on the sticker by the propane door is incorrect. That's the second bit of bad news. Now for the second bit of good news...Grand Design said that the weak point on the rig is the axles, and if we need to be over the GVWR then we can upgrade them. So I called the dealer (he's a friend and I trust him to do us right) and he said he can't imagine spending more than $1,000 to upgrade the axles. He is going to do a little research and see if any other components need to be upgraded, like the tires and springs. He's going to write us up a quote. Until then, we just won't fill up our fresh water tank. That won't be a problem since we won't be boondocking a lot for the next couple of months. I might eventually empty out the rig just to see if the scales match the weight on the sticker. However, even if it doesn't, I think I'll upgrade the axles anyway. Grand Design tries to go with twin axles when possible on their Momentum 5th wheels, which I like. However, the flip side is that you're putting a lot of weight on two axles. Upgrading them will give me more peace of mind, especially when we tackle the Alcan. So, I think I have the answers I need and a plan of action. Thank you guys for all the help :)685Views0likes0CommentsRe: Need help figuring out why my rig is overweight
Normally this forum is really helpful, and in this thread there have been a few helpful posts. Thank you to everyone who gave helpful feedback and advice. What isn't helpful are posts questioning why I would have our tanks fully loaded, suggesting that I don't know how much our personal items weigh, or assuming we're rookies. I'm not sure why people automatically make these assumptions when they add nothing to the conversation. Just because we don't have toys doesn't mean that we never need that much fuel and water. We boondock. A lot. And since we have a 1 year old we need extra water to give him baths and do a load or two of laundry. And no, I don't normally drive down the highway with that much weight. We fill up close to our destination. Why on earth would I travel long distances with an extra 1500~ pounds I don't need to carry...that would be idiotic. The only time I've done that with this rig is to test the performance of our new truck. I fully loaded it and towed it over two mountain ranges to get a feel for how the truck did. I also weighed it on that trip. When we found we were overweight we dumped a lot of water. Second, I know roughly how much our stuff weighs. Why? Because this is our third 5th wheel. I know how much cargo we had in our last 2, and we downsized a LOT when we moved into this RV. It has a lot less storage, so we dumped hundreds of pounds of tools, clothes, etc, that we didn't need. Third, we've full-timed for over 4 years and throughout our lives we have owned 3 5th wheels and been to over 30 states, including going north of the Arctic Circle while towing. We know what we're doing. Lantley wrote: This scenario is why it is recommended to use the GVW of the RV vs. the dry weight. For the most part the sticker weight is not available when researching and the dry weights taken from the brochures are notoriously inaccurate. An experienced RV'er understands what the dry weight represents however a rookie finds out too late, after they are already in the jackpot As said above, we aren't rookies. The sticker is slightly LESS than 13,400 pounds. I checked that before signing the paperwork. Also, dry weights (at least for modern RVs) include fully loaded propane tanks. FWIW, the sticker says it can carry 3,039 pounds of cargo. rhagfo wrote: JaxDad wrote: Maybe I missed it somewhere in a previous post, but if you don’t have ‘toys’ why would you add 60 gallons of fuel? That’s nearly 500 pounds. Sure there’s a genset, but at ~1/2 gal. / hour that’s 120 hours of run time. Beyond that I can’t imagine how long you’d be boondocking that you’d need 157 gallons, 1,200 pounds, of water. Just because a tank holds X number of gallons doesn’t mean it needs to be filled. X2 Horsedoc wrote: I hope I misunderstood what the OP said about water. If not, why would you want to haul 157 gallons of water? Maybe if you were headed a short distance to dry camp, but who hauls that much water traveling? good grief! Because we need that much when we're going off grid for extended periods. Walaby wrote: So, I guess Im wondering what you expect to accomplish calling the manufacturer. You have the weights, they are what they are, and your loaded weight is not going to change with anything the manufacturer tells you. My Grand Design 367 BHS was about 350 lbs heavier than the listed dry weight. I suspect it's a combination of not accurate dry weight from manufacturer, and your stuff weighing more than you think. Just not sure what you will accomplish arguing with manufacturer about dry weight. Mike I'm not planning on arguing with them. Grand Design has been extremely helpful every time I've called. What I want to know is if the dry weight on the sticker (not on the web site) was before or after they added dealer options. If the built it with the options that the dealer ordered and weighed it when it came off the line then the sticker will include the options. If they didn't then I can add up the weight of the options and know what the actual dry weight is. After that, some simple multiplication and addition will tell me how much our cargo is. It's a heck of a lot easier to do that then to take everything out of the RV. If they can't give me an answer then I'll check with the dealer. We know the owner. He'll probably know the exact weight since he had to pay to get it shipped. On our RV the only options were the happy jack bed and couches (they both weigh next to nothing, and we took the couches and table and chairs out anyway) and the generator. A 350+/- pound discrepancy is totally understandable. A 900 pound discrepancy (which is what we'd have to have to be this overweight) is not. As someone said in an earlier post, if there is that much of a discrepancy then we might be able to talk Grand Design into upgrading the axles, assuming the chassis can also handle the extra weight. Grand Design does do stuff like that occasionally. People talk about it in the various Momentum owners groups. Occasionally Grand Design has problems with axles, brakes, suspension, etc, and will either do upgrades or reimburse for the cost of them. Even if they won't upgrade the axles I might do it myself. Again, assuming that the axles are the weak point and that the chassis and other components can handle the extra weight.216Views0likes0CommentsRe: Need help figuring out why my rig is overweight
rk911 wrote: 1). unload everything from the 5'er...everything. no cargo of any sort. 2). empty the tanks of water, fuel, lp. water = 8lbs/gal, gas = 6lbs/gal, lp = 4lbs/gal 3). weigh the 5'er and compare to the mfg dry weights. the only thing that makes sense is the factory weights you have are wrong. I'm pretty sure Grand Design weighed it. The 13,400 number is from their web site, but the sticker by the propane door gives a precise number that is slightly less than 13,400. I'm going to call them Monday and find out. If they did, then I can empty the fresh water and take it over the scales. That will tell me how much cargo we have. Also, thanks for pointing out that gas is 6 pounds per gallon. Good catch.196Views0likes0CommentsRe: Need help figuring out why my rig is overweight
BFL13 wrote: You are assuming that the spec dry weights are correct. Usually that does not include "options" you might have that weigh something, that you thought were included in that dry weight. Options might include fibreglass sides instead of aluminum (add 500 lbs) double pane instead of single pane windows, winter grade insulation package, air conditioner, whatever. Note your spec dry pin weight percentage is 20% (2700/13400) but your measured 3220/17500 is 18%. At GVWR 16500 and 20%, pin would be 3300. No effect on overall weights, but you might be loaded to the rear of the axles, or else nose high when hitched. You can adjust the hitch and king pin heights to get level if need be. This says the 13,400 UVW "is based on average weight" whatever that really means https://www.granddesignrv.com/showroom/2019/toy-hauler/momentum/floorplans/354m Good call on the pin weights. I'm going to lower it a pin. I'm pretty sure Grand Design weighs them when they come off the assembly line. I'll call them Monday to be sure. I say that because on the sticker by the propane tanks they list the precise weight. I didn't write it down, but it was an exact number to the pound, and it was slightly less than 13,400. If they did weigh it, then I'm guessing it was weighed with the options that the dealer ordered it with. I'll call them Monday to be sure. Either way, I went through the list of optional equipment on our RV and the only thing that weighed more than a few pounds was the generator. I'm sure that's a few hundred pounds, but still not enough to explain the discrepancy that I'm seeing. I'll give Grand Design a call on Monday to try to find out if they weighed it, and, if so, if it included the dealer options. I'm also going to empty the tanks and take it across the scales and see what I get. Thanks for the advice, folks. It sounds like I'm going across the scales correctly...I just need to figure out why I'm 900 pounds heavier than I should be. Hopefully Grand Design can help me figure out the base weight of the rig and then I can go from there. P.S. - I'm not over the tire rating, and I can get below the axle rating by dumping a little water. However, I am very concerned about the total weight.117Views0likes0Comments
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