kowbra
Explorer
Joined 5 years ago
User Profile
User Widgets
All Activity
Re: Requesting your thoughts on Montana Super Solarflex system
BTW, jshupe, great info again; you really have been educating me on solar systems and in fact helps me understand better what I will actually be getting versus what I won't. Very helpful and greatly appreciated! Brad646Views0likes0CommentsRe: Requesting your thoughts on Montana Super Solarflex system
jshupe wrote: I just think saying it will "run the entire coach" is a big stretch as most people will buy it expecting to actually be able to run the AC, especially with all the marketing they push about soft starts and high efficiency units. That's going to leave many people sorely disappointed. I guess agree to disagree on this part. Not a stretch at all; this system WILL "run the entire coach" including the AC, microwave, all outlets, furnace, etc. Now if your use is to boondock in 100*+ weather, then this will not be the system for you. But that's not my use case... the whole idea for us is that our 5th wheel has wheels and when it gets too hot we move, and when it gets too cold, we move again. In fact, this is our first RV that will have a 2nd AC (over 10 years of extended RV use, 3-5 months per year)... We boondocked just fine for the past 3+ years with a single AC using 300 watts of solar, 2 T-105s and a 600 watt inverter with occasional portable gen use to top up or run the AC for an hour or 2... water was often a larger concern than battery and solar, and still will be... I just don't believe that "most people" will need to run dual ACs for hours a day. There is a large part of the US and much of Canada where AC use is minimal and a 2nd AC isn't even installed... and there are buyers of RVs in all of these areas too. I think from my research it will work fine for me and others like me, but of course YMMV... and I think it does ;) Brad645Views0likes0CommentsRe: Requesting your thoughts on Montana Super Solarflex system
So, I talked to the Super Solar designer today and learned a few more details; for those who may be interested in this solution... -the AC units are not just a soft start added. They draw 9 amps when running, so much more efficient than normal roof top units -they are now adding 300 watt panels for a total of 1200 watts (noted earlier) -they will be upgrading the MPPT charge controllers to dual 40 amp models -there is a panel to remove to add another 500ah of lithium; this could be other manufacturers as long as the charge profile matched -they are working on a drop in package from Keystone with dual DragonFly GC3 batteries for those who want a turn key 510ah upgrade to a total of 1020ah -the design goal was that this would serve to run the entire coach and in many conditions would fully charge the batteries each day -for those who may think their usage may tax or exceed the design, they do have the upgrade path as above, but also are suggesting that a portable generator could be used. For example, in situations where a solar only solution would be taxed, such as cloud, forest, etc, then even a larger system may not be enough. Of course, one could just keep overbuilding with more panels and battery storage to account for worst case scenario... or carry a small 2000w generator to charge the batteries for those times I do hope this information is helpful for those considering this solution. We placed our order including the Super Solar Flex and will be trying it out later this year. I will update all once we are able to test it. Brad645Views0likes0CommentsRe: Requesting your thoughts on Montana Super Solarflex system
StirCrazy wrote: kowbra wrote: StirCrazy wrote: if you can DIY you can do a set up for about 5000.00 I think that package is way over priced. If there willing to sell it for 14 they probably pay 7 (or less) for it. they should give a few different options (battery types and such) and they might sell more at different price points. Steve Sorry Steve, but not sure where you are getting your numbers. Batteries alone are worth more than that. I did the math a few posts ago, and to be clear in USD. Now, as to what they probably pay? Anyone's guess and to me that's simply pure conjecture. Perhaps they should have more options, but they really do have 3 options right now: -solar prep; no charge, included with every new Montana and comes with solar connectors and solar prewiring along with 5 outlets wired to inverter location. Everything else can be DIY added -Solar Flex package; about $1500USD. Comes with a single 300watt/24v panel, a Magnum 2000 watt inverter and associated bits, but no batteries. A nice starter system that can be built on -Super Solar Flex package; the topic of this thread, and the only one that comes with included batteries... If you have some DIY numbers you can jump in with that can create a similar package to the Super Solar Flex for $5000, I'm all ears... let us know, that would be a smokin deal! Brad if you DIYing your not buying off the shelf batteries, you can build two 12V 280 AH for about 560 plus 400 in shipping and 100 bucks for a BMS that does equalization. I just paid 230 (including tax) for a 325 watt 24V panel, 300 for a Mppt controler that can handle 4 of thoes and more. can get a 2000 watt pure sign wave inverter from Xantrex for about 1300.00 (not trying to run an ac so realy thats all you need unless your huge power hogs then i dont know what to say, asid from spend more money :) ) I'll add 100 bucks for wires and such which takes us to 3600 bucks for a 1300 watt 24V panel set up feeding 560AH LiPhO4 bank with a 200 watt hardwired pure sign inverter with a 30 amp auto transfer built in. if you wanted to save some money you could go with 4 gc batteries and have about 470 ah (235 usable) which is what I am running on my 5th right now, or you could spend more and buy LiPhO4 if you wernt comfterable with making them. in that cace you would spend 5 - 8K total depending on the capacity you want. as for retail product pricing, you can generaly count on a 100% mark up at the retail store, specialty industries like boating, rv, automotive can and usaly have a higher markup than that, but just assuming it is the industy standard 100% than means if they sell it for 14 they pay 7 to the distrubitor who then would pay around 4 to the company who makes it. I used to run a computer business years and years ago and I used to just shake my heads at the multi levels of doubling of prices. if it is a dealer installed option it would probably cost the dealer about 1/2 after they take there labour out. if it is a factory option then it would be even less as they would be buying straight from the manufactuer. either way it is what are you willing to pay for convenience and how handy are you. people will pay for this , exspecialy since you can roll it into the price of the rv and pay and extra 30 bucks a month on your financing. Steve Good summary, Steve, I think we can agree it's not apples to apples to the Montana solution, but it does show what can be done for about $5-6k... even 3 or 4 years ago there is no way you could have built a solution as you've outlined for that price. And, I think it's a great point that for some it will be an option because the cost per month is low... BTW, personally I don't get the idea of 10 or 20 year loans on "toys", but it sure does seem to be popular with many now. Thanks! Brad645Views0likes0CommentsRe: Requesting your thoughts on Montana Super Solarflex system
time2roll wrote: Montana lost me when they mixed Magnum, Victron and no name on the controller. Victron will all tie together and communicate better as a single brand. What you are really paying for with Montana is the engineering to have everything well matched, placed and wired to be easily used by a non technical person. Yes for some an integrated OEM system will have great value. The no name controllers, Jaboni, are a rebranded Victron... agree on the rest... Brad645Views0likes0CommentsRe: Requesting your thoughts on Montana Super Solarflex system
jshupe wrote: Maybe... but I feel like they should market it for what it is. A system that will run most of the systems, most days, but clearly state what the limits are. People are going to buy it, not knowing what they are getting into. I of at least a couple people in the fulltime community who do installs like mine either on the side, or as a full-time job now. Almost everybody serious about this seems to go Victron. I agree, but when did any manufacturers marketing department send out realistic messaging? LOL Instead, we don't get a "roof", we get a "Magnum Truss Roof" tada!!! As if it's any better, instead it's more likely worse than the "roof" we got on our older ones. Likely the same thing here; can't be just any regular solar that can be bought elsewhere, it has be a "gamechanger" solar that can only be bought from them... I do think you make good points to consider about the realistic limits of the solution. Good to know about others getting into installs, and thanks for the recommendation on Victron; again I never saw much about them when I was doing our last rig a few years ago. Brad645Views0likes0CommentsRe: Requesting your thoughts on Montana Super Solarflex system
time2roll wrote: jshupe wrote: My initial setup cost a little under $17,500. I bought all items from the same vendor to get the best pricing via a project discount. 6x REC N-PEAK Series 325 Watt panels @ ~$200/ea 2x Victron SmartSolar MPPT 150/35 solar charge controller @ ~$300/ea 2x Victron Quattro 48/3000/35-50/50 inverters @ ~$1750/ea 2x Victron Autotransformers @ ~$600/ea 2x Victron Orion-Tr 48/12-30A DC-DC converters @ ~$200/ea 1x Victron Venus GX @ ~$300 1x Victron BMV-712 @ ~$200 3x SimpliPhi 3.8kWh batteries @ ~$2600/ea That's around $15,200 in major components, then the cables, boxes, breakers, etc brought it to a little over $17K.. I like this list far better than the OEM unit posted above. Yes, a very nice system, and when adding labor is $5-6k more than the Montana package. It is more capable and I think it's more scalable than the Montana system as well. I think this would take a very experienced DIY, or even a very experienced professional. The problem with the pro is most have their favorite solutions -I know when I've done research I haven't found the pro that would install a provided kit like above... meaning they would have their favorite products, along with their markup. So, to be realistic and try to compare apples to apples (meaning a turn key installed system with a warranty for the products and installation), I suspect the difference in price could be much higher than $5-6k; as well it should be for what you are getting. Where it gets hard is that we end up comparing apples to oranges, which it what this comparison kind of is. I still think there is a place for the Super Solar Flex package, and it's for the person who just wants a turn key solution. For that, I believe it is a reasonable solution at a reasonable price. Now, if I had jshupe's obvious solar install skills, I think I would see it different... Brad645Views0likes0CommentsRe: Requesting your thoughts on Montana Super Solarflex system
StirCrazy wrote: if you can DIY you can do a set up for about 5000.00 I think that package is way over priced. If there willing to sell it for 14 they probably pay 7 (or less) for it. they should give a few different options (battery types and such) and they might sell more at different price points. Steve Sorry Steve, but not sure where you are getting your numbers. Batteries alone are worth more than that. I did the math a few posts ago, and to be clear in USD. Now, as to what they probably pay? Anyone's guess and to me that's simply pure conjecture. Perhaps they should have more options, but they really do have 3 options right now: -solar prep; no charge, included with every new Montana and comes with solar connectors and solar prewiring along with 5 outlets wired to inverter location. Everything else can be DIY added -Solar Flex package; about $1500USD. Comes with a single 300watt/24v panel, a Magnum 2000 watt inverter and associated bits, but no batteries. A nice starter system that can be built on -Super Solar Flex package; the topic of this thread, and the only one that comes with included batteries... If you have some DIY numbers you can jump in with that can create a similar package to the Super Solar Flex for $5000, I'm all ears... let us know, that would be a smokin deal! Brad645Views0likes0CommentsRe: Requesting your thoughts on Montana Super Solarflex system
Ok, now that makes sense. You've really given a lot of great information here! Interesting how Victron seems to have been long known in the marine world, but now more popular in RV as well. I really didn't see much info on them 3 years ago when doing my last RV. And, your panels and batteries are names I've not seen before either. Thanks again! Brad287Views0likes0CommentsRe: Requesting your thoughts on Montana Super Solarflex system
jshupe wrote: kowbra wrote: BTW, this video seems to be the most thorough I can find so far... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9RD4qmud0s There is a section in there about the power management... I think it will help in other situations besides just straight battery power; examples could be 30amp and want to run both ACs, or AC+microwave. Or, 15amp power and want to run 1 AC... Brad I forgot to mention, the Victron inverters already do that. No need for something extra. They actually have a few different ways to configure it. Check out their PowerAssist and ESS documentation. Ok, so does that mean you have eliminated the factory charger/converter? But, I'm still not sure I get it... with the precision power management, it is replacing the entire output side of the power grid independently of any of the input sources. I think that it so that it can monitor all of the inputs by being in the middle? How would 1 or both of the Victron's monitor all of the outputs from all of the possible inputs? (trying to wrap my head around it...) Brad287Views0likes0Comments
Groups
