jpkiljan
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Re: 3000W Chinese Gensets Info.
jpkiljan wrote: A REASON NOT TO BUY A PORTABLE GENERATOR FROM PEPBOYS? I'm pretty happy with my 3000 watt Wen Power generator (PowerPro Model 3500D 6.5 HP) from PepBoys. It has already seen me through one short power outage. I paid a pretty reasonable $250 plus tax on it after the $50 mail-in rebate, which put it just under the cost of their competition. I think the price has gone up a bit since then with the rebate still set at $50. However, for those considering the purchase of a generator from PepBoys, consider this: a $50 rebate is not worth $50 if you never get it. Mine never came. Instead, I got a postcard from "Pep Boys Auto Resubmit" saying that the "The receipt(s) submitted did not show the purchase of any qualifying items." Fortunately, I made copies of everything and, yes, the receipt exactly matches the item on the multi-page fill-in form plus all the times and eligible dates check out. I couldn't figure out why the sales clerk was insistent that he help me fill out their long rebate form, but he did it exactly right from what I can see. Nor, can I figure out why a quality retailer would want to hurt their reputation with this kind of thing. I'll invite PepBoys to reconsider their rejection, of course, but who wants that kind of hassle over just $50? If the check ever does show up, I'll post a quick note here. --John Here's the promised follow-up: I resubmitted a copy of my receipt and copies of everything else and waited another month. There was no response at all from "Pep Boys Auto Resubmit"--nada. Before filing a complaint with the Better Business Bureau and AG's office--something I had promised to do in my re-submittal request--I dropped by the Pep Boys retailer and said I had a complaint and asked to speak with the manager. I showed the assistant manager the paperwork and he simply said, "If they haven't reimbursed you by now, they never will." Without another word, he spent a couple of minutes punching numbers into his cash register's keyboard, handed me $50 in bills, and asked me to sign a form saying I'd received the cash. I spent some of the money at the same store buying a nice new blind-spot mirror. The store will certainly get my business again, but I'll never fully value Pep Boy's advertised mail-in rebates. BTW, I've noticed that they've increased the list price of the same generator by $50 to $350, but they occasionally have a $50 off sale without the need for a mail-in rebate. On a completely different subject: Don't forget your first oil change. I changed the oil on my generator for the first time after 10 hours running time over two months. Wow! The waste oil looked almost iridescent from all the fine suspended metal particles when I set the drain pan out in sunlight. The manufacturer recommends the first change be at 50 hours. I don't think you should wait that long. --John312Views0likes0CommentsRe: 3000W Chinese Gensets Info.
A REASON NOT TO BUY A PORTABLE GENERATOR FROM PEPBOYS? I'm pretty happy with my 3000 watt Wen Power generator (PowerPro Model 3500D 6.5 HP) from PepBoys. It has already seen me through one short power outage. I paid a pretty reasonable $250 plus tax on it after the $50 mail-in rebate, which put it just under the cost of their competition. I think the price has gone up a bit since then with the rebate still set at $50. However, for those considering the purchase of a generator from PepBoys, consider this: a $50 rebate is not worth $50 if you never get it. Mine never came. Instead, I got a postcard from "Pep Boys Auto Resubmit" saying that the "The receipt(s) submitted did not show the purchase of any qualifying items." Fortunately, I made copies of everything and, yes, the receipt exactly matches the item on the multi-page fill-in form plus all the times and eligible dates check out. I couldn't figure out why the sales clerk was insistent that he help me fill out their long rebate form, but he did it exactly right from what I can see. Nor, can I figure out why a quality retailer would want to hurt their reputation with this kind of thing. I'll invite PepBoys to reconsider their rejection, of course, but who wants that kind of hassle over just $50? If the check ever does show up, I'll post a quick note here. --John402Views0likes0CommentsRe: 3000W Chinese Gensets Info.
vpkiljan wrote: . . . the basic principals seem plain enough: the neutral should be connected to the ground wire at a single point (and only at a single point) in every electrical hookup--portable or residential. . . . professor95 wrote: . . . One of my points is that a RV is not wired like your house. A RV is wired like an appliance. Therefore, the safety rules and issues change. . . . I am definately not here to argue (I doubt that you are either). I am here to share, compare and learn. (I feel that I have learned more than I have given on this forum.) If I am wrong someone needs to convince me why. I need to see a scenario that shows why neutral bonding to the frame on a portable genset used with a RV is safer than letting the neutral float and bonding the frame to earth ground. Dear Professor95, Okay, I'll bite. Here's a link to a Department of Interior site--complete with scary cartoons and a fatality--showing a couple of things that can go wrong if the neutral and ground are not bonded when using a portable or vehicle-mounted generator with an appliance. http://www.usbr.gov/power/data/fist/fist5_13/5-13.pdf or click HERE. The first fault scenario sounds very similar to what happened when TKMJ's wife took that near-fatal jolt from their RV. I've also heard that some manufacturers of light generators supply a 'neutral grounding plug' that one can simply plug into one of the generator's available 15-amp sockets when it is appropriate to do so. I have no idea what a plug like that would do when a generator is switched to its 240-volt position. All the best, --John (aka VPKiljan)352Views0likes0CommentsRe: 3000W Chinese Gensets Info.
professor95 wrote: . . . I know we have had the bonding/grounding discussion before on this forum and agreement seems to evade the group. Even our Northern neighbors have code regulations that require the designated neutral on a genset to be bonded to the frame. I am adamant that this practice is not safe for a portable genset used with an RV (it is OK for connection to a residental power system). . . . Hello Professor95, You're certainly right about there not being agreement. I reached just the opposite conclusions after reading the article in the IMSA Journal at this link http://www.imsasafety.org/journal/marapr/ma5.htm or click HERE. These are the guys whose job it is to hook up emergency power supplies in the field during civil disasters. To me, that gives their views a fair amount of credibility. Sorry, but I don't remember who to give credit to for originally posting that article to this group. This assumes, as you did in a later post, that the neutral and ground are not bonded together inside the RV. They are not in my MH; but, of course, they could be in other people's RV's. For my RV, and probably many others, it certainly looks like IMSA is saying that the Canadians have got it right when running an RV off of a generator--the generator frame and the power socket's neutral should be bonded together. This also assumes that you are using the generator to connect to the residential wiring with a transfer switch that does not switch the neutral connection. Apparently, that is the most common kind of low-amperage transfer switch. In that case the IMSA article is saying that generator frame should not be bonded to the neutral since it will leave you with currents flowing through both the neutral and the ground wire into the house. I've never read the NEC and don't plan to. But, to me, the basic principals seem plain enough: the neutral should be connected to the ground wire at a single point (and only at a single point) in every electrical hookup--portable or residential. And, that parallel currents flowing in the neutral and the ground wires of any circuit are a hazard. --John421Views0likes0CommentsRe: 3000W Chinese Gensets Info.
N9WOS wrote: . . . I found this because I was looking for a cheep generator for backup power at the house, plus or minus a few times I need to run something without access to mains power. . . . And I do not want one with a 220V output, or fancy 120V plugs. Just a basic set of normal outlets without any fancy 120-240 switches to break or malfunction. . . . Good day, and thanks for everyone's help. :) This is just to comment briefly on the need for a 240 VAC (220V) output. I also wanted my new PowerPro 3000 watt generator for the same purpose--not so much for RV use as much as for an emergency supply for my cabin and for occasional field use. Basically, there seems to be two choices when the power goes out and you are trying to plug your house into a portable generator: The first is to simply run an extension cord from the generator in through a door or a window and then plug everything you can (fridge, lamps, computer, window fans, freezer, TV, portable AC, etc) into that cord until you reach your load limit or you run out of additional extension cords. 120 VAC works fine for that choice if your generator can deliver full power to the 120 VAC sockets, as my generator can. But remember, some portable generators won't feed full power to its 120-volt receptacles without modification. However, if the things you really need to power up don't have plugs (e.g. ceiling lamps, well pumps, ceiling fans, furnace blowers, yard lights, etc) then you really have to go with the second choice and power the house through a transfer switch. A transfer switch can also feed any of your existing wall sockets. The cost for a low-end 30-amp transfer switch is pretty reasonable from what I can see on the Ebay listings for these, but they all seem to insist on being fed with a 240-volt plug from your generator. (Note: They also need to be put in by a real electrician unless you are super-sure you know what you are doing. If you don't do that, you run the financial and emotional risk of killing a lineman during an outage through feedback into the utility's power grid.) The plug that feeds the transfer switch from your generator is a 240-volt three-wire single-phase plug with ground, such as the four-pin twist-lock L14-30 plug and receptacle that came with my generator, or one of its heftier kin, if your panel and generator can handle more amps. Despite its name, the plug handles two phases and those are split between each half of the transfer panel and each provides 120 VAC to the house wiring through individual breakers with half of them operating on each phase. Normally, there is also a single 240-volt breaker that taps both phases so it can be used to power a single burner element on a stove top, or a 240-volt well pump, or anything else that really has to have a 240-volt feed. The moral of this is that, even if you know you'll never need to power a 240-volt appliance or circuit, 240-volts is still a very nice thing to have if you ever plan to feed your house (or anyone else's house) through a transfer switch. --John383Views0likes0CommentsRe: 3000W Chinese Gensets Info.
SonicLogic wrote: BORoarke wrote: toprudder wrote: SonicLogic wrote: For every 1,000 feet above sea level your power output decreases by 1%. Actually, it is worse than that. About 3% per 1000 feet. :( Bob R. What I was taught, reduce the power rating on the label of the generator by 1% for every 1000 feet you are above sea level, 3% for every 1000 ft. above 3000 ft. So basically, if you are at 8,000 ft, your generator's output would be reduced by 18%. 1,000 ft - 1% 2,000 ft - 1% 3,000 ft - 1% 4,000 ft - 3% 5,000 ft - 3% 6,000 ft - 3% 7,000 ft - 3% 8,000 ft - 3% Total reduction: 18% This is what I was taught. If this is wrong, please correct me so I know. Thanks! Of course, you guys are right and I stand corrected. Suffice it to say that both elevation and high ambient temperatures (anything over 77º F) will reduce the generator output. My real point was that John’s generator is not “over-rated”. It is running well within specifications and perhaps putting out more power than advertised. These are all 'thumbnail' rules, of course. But, SonicLogic got it right--I did indeed forget to account for altitude and temperature. My particular model of the PowerPro generator is rated for 3750 watts of surge and yet I was killing my engine at a point somewhere between 2850 and 3000 watts with purely resistive loads. Later, I noticed my old Briggs & Stratton lawn mower manual had yet another thumbnail rule: "Engine power will decrease 3-1/2% for every 1000 feet (305 m) above sea level and 1% for each 10ºF above 60ºF (16ºC)." Working out the math for my altitude and temperature--I was at 85º F when I did my testing--it comes out to just over a 21% reduction, or a surge capacity of only 2950 watts. That's right on target, but OUCH! In Colorado, one often camps at 9000 feet and that means a power loss of over 30%. The only thing I like about this formula is the thought of mowing my lawn at 60ºF. Usually it's in the 90's when it's time to mow around here. --John303Views0likes0CommentsRe: 3000W Chinese Gensets Info.
yerlizard wrote: the low cost hour meter link. doesn't seem to work Got it. I'll retry here. I hope you weren't expecting too much. --John PS -- Hopefully, our moderator can edit this down to a decent size like he's done in the past. Thanks, --J http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/jpkiljan/detail_hires?.dir=8319re2&.dnm=1230re2.jpg303Views0likes0CommentsRe: 3000W Chinese Gensets Info.
yerlizard wrote: John, I can't that link to go anywhere, it cannot display it. is there another link? thanks, Scott Which link, Scott? The humorous Low-Cost Hour Meter or is it the IMSA portable generator grounding link? I just checked both and they came up right away. --John382Views0likes0CommentsRe: 3000W Chinese Gensets Info.
AZJIM1 wrote: How many of you are running hour meters on your gensets? I have been thinking of adding one to my new Champion (while it is still new) and have seen TinyTachs and SenDec models . . . anybody have any experience with these? No experience here, but if the cost is too much and there is only one or two users, then consider this method I use on my generator . . . CLICK HERE 8^) --John [edited to fix the image link problem]382Views0likes0CommentsRe: 3000W Chinese Gensets Info.
MrWizard wrote: neutral on these generators is NOT bonded to grd, and that is the way it is supposed to be ,'NOT bonded" is corect . . . there are several other threads devoted to that topic This was a good suggestion, MrWizard. I put something like "neutral bonding" into TrailerLife's SEARCH feature. I found a lot of opinions (sometimes conflicting ones), but the best was a link to a site run by IMSA on when to ground and when to bond a portable generator's neutral to its frame. It's fairly long, but it has some nice easy-to-understand illustrations, NEC references, and is well worth reading. Here is the site link http://www.imsasafety.org/journal/marapr/ma5.htm or, hopefully, you can click HERE. Here is a short excerpt: "Caution--Generator Neutral Grounding Generators will often have the neutral conductor bonded to the generator frame. This is commonly done on small portable generators supplied with receptacles. Larger generators with a cord supplied pin and sleeve connector typically do not have the neutral grounded to the frame. There is no industry standard for when the neutral is or is not grounded, however it seems to be dependent on the generator having receptacles mounted on the frame, as then the neutral is grounded to the generator frame. The generator user needs to know if the neutral is grounded or not. If the generator neutral is grounded, then the generator can only be used with a transfer switch that transfers the neutral, or as a stand-alone generator for a carnival or special even, and then ground rods are required." Until I read this IMSA Journal article, I had no idea that there were two kinds of transfer switches and that the most common ones don't switch the neutral. It also appears to explain why our Canadian friend (CCTAU) had the neutral and frame bonded on his generator (and tagged as such) when he bought it. I bought my (unbonded) PowerPro to provide emergency power to my cabin's well pump, as well as to my motor home. I'll certainly keep this in mind when I wire up a transfer switch to the pump. IMSA is a public-service safety group. Apparently, its members often find themselves powering traffic signals and disaster sites with portable generators when there are widespread outages. BTW, I checked my motor home and found that there is no electrical connections between the neutral and the MH chassis. This may explain why I sometimes feel a slight, but nevertheless unnerving, tingling sensation when (depending upon the local hookup) I grab the door handle while standing outside. --John382Views0likes0Comments
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