Anon_Tech
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Re: Black Series fire hazard
Gdetrailer wrote: Anon_Tech wrote: Look I don't mean to be rude or deny that you're knowledgeable, please don't take it that way. One of the pictures I posted in one of those threads clearly shows a 100a breaker in the box of a 30a service, and all of the 120VAC wiring entering into a residential distribution panel via a hole cut with what was most likely an angle grinder with a cut off wheel. I'm familiar with the codes regarding high and low voltage wiring. If you would look at the thread I posted to RV forums and linked to then you can see what I'm referring too. I'm sure you guys get a lot of angry know it all's on here so I'm not taking this personally. Please just have a look at that post. Your post DID get taken down on IRV2 for some reason before you made the OP in this thread.. Look at this way, YOU could have placed ANY breaker yourself, you could have done anything and then taken a picture. The OWNER of the RV could have also modified the electrical system or could have had a "friend" modify it. And you end up having to "mop up" the resultant mess when it goes sideways. And yes, I have dealt with jerks that tried to fix stuff and not tell me before they brought it to me and made a mess of it.. Yeah, they ate a lot of crow and paid dearly for the real repairs. I am not aware of ANY "single pole" 100A breakers, one would have to buy a 100A TWO POLE breaker and then remove the common mechanical bond.. Doing that is very expensive, those breakers are north of $100, a standard 30A single pole might cost you $15 now days.. There is ZERO reason for a RV manufacturer to buy and install a $100 breaker into a panel when a $15 breaker will work. RV manufacturers simply would not have 100A breakers in stock for the manufacturing floor to pull.. I highly doubt the RV manufacturer is going to have someone on the line with a grinder modifying panels either.. I spent my last 22yrs working in a manufacturing environment, every thing is specd by the engineering team, then you have the budget teams, the purchasing teams, the accountants tossed into the mix for good measure.. It is pretty hard to push $100 parts into the mix when a $15 part is what is required. I suspect the "mods" you have noted did not happen at the manufacturers factory. iRV2 removed my post. It is still live on rvforums and expedition portal You realize these aren't built in the US right? They're made almost entirely in China, then shipped into CA to have the suspension and wheels installed before they get sent to dealers. I find it a lot more likely that they had a big batch of panels that they modified for use rather than 5 different customers doing it themselves. That also really wouldn't explain why Black Series admitted fault, sent new panels, and paid for them to be installed. If you looked at the photos I've mentioned multiple times you would see these things. It's become pretty obvious that you would rather cast doubt and argue instead of spend 5 minutes looking at the proof I already provided. All that matters is that anyone who owns one of these is aware and gets their trailer checked out. I honestly don't care about Black Series as a company, they've done nothing to me personally. You don't have to trust me, I'm a stranger on the internet, please don't downplay the issue though.1.5KViews0likes0CommentsRe: Black Series fire hazard
Gdetrailer wrote: Anon_Tech wrote: This forum won't let me upload photos directly, if you'll have a look at the post I linked in the OP then you'll see original photos, I've also made a new post showing the outlets in question. Post in thread 'Black Series fire hazard' https://rvforums.com/threads/black-series-fire-hazard.10253/post-67512 This forum does not support direct picture hosting. Have to use a third party online host. Something else to consider, the combo 120V/12V panels have TWO completely electrically isolated sections. 120V is treated one way and 12V is treated as "low voltage" and deos not require things like having electrical connections in a work box or even clamps to clamp the wires. Some of your complaints may have come from seeing wires entering the 12V section which will not have any wire clamps, no buffering of the openings and will have individual wires entering/exiting which is 100% the polar opposite of 120V wiring. You made serious allegations of having breaker 3x the ratings which I find to be impossible and would be more expensive for the manufacturer to have done.. 3 times the rating would mean for 30A service they would have a 90A single pole breaker and for a 50A service a 150A two pole breaker.. Price those breakers.. They are not cheap.. Heck even standard outlet wiring 14 ga wire would have to have 45A single and 12 ga wire would have to be 60 singles.. None of the breaker sizes you claim to have found would be commonly found in any electrical supply warehouse let alone in a RV builders inventory. ***Link Removed*** is a catalog of Murray breakers which would possibly fit in the RV electrical panels.. I am not saying mistakes can't happen, they can, but you have stated a lot of things that just seems to be a lot of exaggeration for attention.. Look I don't mean to be rude or deny that you're knowledgeable, please don't take it that way. One of the pictures I posted in one of those threads clearly shows a 100a breaker in the box of a 30a service, and all of the 120VAC wiring entering into a residential distribution panel via a hole cut with what was most likely an angle grinder with a cut off wheel. I'm familiar with the codes regarding high and low voltage wiring. If you would look at the thread I posted to RV forums and linked to then you can see what I'm referring too. I'm sure you guys get a lot of angry know it all's on here so I'm not taking this personally. Please just have a look at that post. https://rvforums.com/threads/black-series-fire-hazard.10253/1.5KViews0likes0CommentsRe: Black Series fire hazard
Gdetrailer wrote: Anon_Tech wrote: Yes they are using residential outlets, screwed directly into cabinets. No boxes at all. I've hade to go through multiple units and replace all the outlets with enclosed RV ones. RVIA is a big circle jerk. NEC article 511 is specifically for RVs though. I'll agree all manufacturers build these things as cheaply as possible. Some are better than others, but almost all of them do atleast try to be mindful of safety if not serviceability. Pictures? No pictures, no proof. Your rant (post?) on IRV2 was pulled before you posted your first post here and no longer exists, wonder why? Your making a lot of serious allegations and have zero proof to back them. As mentioned, they CAN build RVs and even "manufactured homes" using the all in one boxless outlets (AKA vampire taps) and while I agree those are not the greatest design, they do pass the muster for not needing to be placed in a work box. There are also plastic workboxes that are specifically designed to not need or use clamps, punch the hole open and insert the Romex and done. The breaker panels used in RVs are combo 120V/12V breaker/fuse panels which on the 120V side will have both neutral and ground bus and those two are isolated. These are standard off the shelf panels made by well known manufacturers for RV use and they are 100% NEC approved. Heck even if they used a standard off the shelf breaker panel from Home Depot or Lowes those too also will have separate neutral and ground bus connections (and those are already "pre bonded" and you have to remove the bonding screw when installing as a sub panel) and are 100% NEC approved.. Some of your complaints may because sometimes the bonding or lack of bonding screw is not obvious. Many times the neutral bus IS isolated and it doesn't look that way, just depends on how the manufacturer of said box setup the insulator. RV manufacturers while they may skimp on some things, they can't skimp and getaway with the alleged allegations you have made due to liabilities it could cause. They may be cheap, but they also are deeply aware of what can happen when skimping could cause death or destruction. As said, no pictures, never happened, to me you sound like a disgruntled former employee of the manufacturer or a disgruntled owner of that brand you are making claims against.. This forum won't let me upload photos directly, if you'll have a look at the post I linked in the OP then you'll see original photos, I've also made a new post showing the outlets in question. Post in thread 'Black Series fire hazard' https://rvforums.com/threads/black-series-fire-hazard.10253/post-675121.5KViews0likes0CommentsRe: Black Series fire hazard
BurbMan wrote: Anon_Tech wrote: ...outlets with no boxes... FYI, the outlets they use in RVs are designed to be installed without boxes in shallow-depth walls. The outlets have no exposed contacts and internal cable clamps. Are they using residential outlets with side screws? The other stuff sounds pretty serious, especially in the main panel. I have the panel cover off in my Heartland Big Country and whoever wired it did a really neat and professional job, I was impressed. Yes they are using residential outlets, screwed directly into cabinets. No boxes at all. I've hade to go through multiple units and replace all the outlets with enclosed RV ones. Wade44 wrote: Perhaps take a good look at the wiring in some of the junk that comes out of Indiana by the big guys. Thor, Forest River, Winnebago, Grand Design etc. I think you would get a good surprise if you poke around the receptacles, shore power connectors, and AC side of converters / distribution panels, and know what your looking for. Those RVIA decals are a feely good joke and mean nothing. The RVIA certifies nothing. All that decal says is the manufacturer agrees to follow NFPA1192 which is the National Fire Protection Association. Its a good faith honor system thing as there is no inspector from the NFPA, RVIA, or anyone else in any RV factory anywhere. Read the decal, "Manufacturer certifies". RVIA is a big circle jerk. NEC article 511 is specifically for RVs though. I'll agree all manufacturers build these things as cheaply as possible. Some are better than others, but almost all of them do atleast try to be mindful of safety if not serviceability.1.5KViews0likes0CommentsBlack Series fire hazard
I'm an RV service technician, I won't say where because I'm making these posts on my own and am not representing them in anyway. I've discovered a very serious electrical issue in quite a few Black Series units. No link between models or years, I've seen them in '19, '20, '21, and 2022, and models like HQ15, HQ17, HQ19, and HQ21's. All of the unit's I've looked at have main AC distribution panels that are wildly out of code and extremely dangerous. Most of them have the wires entering loosely through a roughly cut hole in the box, with the wires rubbing the metal and damaging the insulation. I've seen some with breakers rated for more than triple what the trailer is rated for. Some don't have proper ground bars or lugs. Some even have nonsensical and dangerous connections in the box. I could get picky with NEC and find a good dozen violations in them. All of the issues I have found are extremely dangerous. I've seen ground wires melting, main supply wires with damaged insulation and exposed conductors, loose wires, outlets with no boxes, and plenty of other things. These all pose a very serious risk of fire, and could easily cause damage, injury, or death. The manufacturer has been made aware of these issues but is doing nothing to alert customers of the danger here. I've filed a few individual complaints with the NHTSA, but it will take more than a handful of complaints for them to investigate the matter. If these problems are as widespread as they appear then a national recall needs to be issued. I'd like to ask all owners to inspect their units. With the trailer unplugged from shore power, you can remove the 2 or 4 screws securing the cover to the breaker box. If you see these issues please post photos here along with the trailer VIN. I'd also strongly suggest you file a complaint with the NHTSA, and contact Black Series about these issues. Please see my posts here for photos. https://rvforums.com/threads/black-series-fire-hazard.10253/ https://www.irv2.com/forums/f50/black-series-fire-hazard-575539.html#post6132794 Here is a link to file an NHTSA complaint. https://www.nhtsa.gov/report-a-safety-problem#index5.7KViews0likes16Comments
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