BFRXLT
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Re: 3000W Chinese Gensets Info.
Old & Slow wrote: BFRXLT, The last post I headed with your handle was kinda like being on a road to no place. But folks are trying to be nice the best we can. So no one zoomed in on Old and Slow. Thanks men. My question was really concerning your find on Surge suppression for a genset even though most of us have a Chinese genny and not the Powermate. Maybe you can get the goose (me) out of the fog. I use a power backup which has a battery designed to run the load during short outages and can also do many other things. It constantly monitors AC input and adjusts its output to predefined parameters. It will correct any out of range issues and output clean, pure steady voltage to whatever is plugged into it. The one I have was around $200.00 but it's better than buying another of the devices it is protecting. It is also very unlikely that it will be damaged by incoming AC irregularities. You can get one at any electronics store. Look for one that protects against over/under voltage, surges, and that corrects sine waves and cycles.329Views0likes0CommentsRe: 3000W Chinese Gensets Info.
Old & Slow wrote: BFRXLT (Jack) Where you been? Good to see a post from you. We have recently mentioned spark arrestors (screens). Did you try the muffler/screen S3 and did it lower the db by 3/5? I know for sure the screen on my Champion does lower the noise level when inserted by some amount. Now I'm beginning to understand ? the story of some that post not being able to start a A/C with underpowered Inverters. So there is a advantage of using these old clunky heavy flywheel gensets. Reading these different threads is like taking a 101 class in Power Generation. I miss MrWizard giving his take. He once gave his idea that the AVR suffers and possibly fails from the spikes. Mostly due to a shut down with a load. Me thinks the AVR has a weak sister somewhere in a component, I understand even most Capacitors are rated from a mfg for only so many starts, like maybe 2000 on a compressor. So interesting when posters pass along what they have discovered. Now, will you kindly give more info' on the surge protector you reference. The only concern for me is over voltage. From what we are learning, the possibility of this happening from our portable genny is low. But, better to be safe than sorry. I do believe Prof95 will soon lead us in the right direction. My gut feeling is, he is deep into the project. I got the S5 with resonator and yes it lowered the db level by at least that much maybe more. I have not had a chance to chenck it in depth yet. I am currently building an enclosure that has made a huge difference so far but am not ready to post the pics or results yet. I will say that I have quieted it down by 15 db so far. I started at about 87 db and am down to 72 db at 10 ft. My yard is pretty small so I am limited by that to the distance I can measure. Outside of my yard I can hardly hear it since there is a block wall. I have one neighbor that can hear it pretty well due to the design of our houses and the way they sit so I still need more work. In their back yard noise level is at about 65 db. They can carry on a normal conversation but it is annoying after awhile. I don't want them to listen to it for long. The generator is within 7 ft of my block wall and it seems to reflect into their yard. I read this and other threads almost always once a day or more. EDIT: Powermate closed down production for good? That may be why I got my 5700 continuous generator for $400. Not good news for me but I still got a great deal on the gen.366Views0likes0CommentsRe: 3000W Chinese Gensets Info.
I'm not an expert on generators or anything but the non-inverter generators are already turning at 3600 RPM. Inverter style generators are turning slower than that depending on the current load the are running. When you turn on an AC unit with a non-inverter generator it's already at speed while the inverter style generator has to actually speed up to power the load. I think that is part of the reason the inverter gens cannot start the AC unit where the non-inverter gens can. That being said I have a power backup device that provides surge protection as well as over/under voltage protection so I don't have to worry about all that. The one I use has a built in surge protector and if the voltage goes over or under a preset voltage it will automatically adjust the voltage. There is also a methode to set the over/under voltage to what ever I want it to be.366Views0likes0CommentsRe: 3000W Chinese Gensets Info.
HedoTravelers wrote: BFRXLT wrote: I have a question for any one whom can answer it. I would like to know what a reasonable temperature I could expect on say a 90 degree day for the oil and the hot exhaust air (not the engine exhaust)? I am talking about the oil temperature I could for the engine oil if I took one of the drain plugs out and put in an oil temperature gauge. I am talking about the air temperature of the cooling air as it leaves the shroud after cooling the engine. If any one has something they have actually measured that would be the best scenario. It doesn't have to be a 90 degree day but the relevant ambient temperature. What I am trying to find out is what temperature to expect the oil/air to be under a half load without any enclosure and with an enclosure so I can buy an appropriate gauge for the engine without guessing since I don't have anything that measures temperatures that high and don't want to spend the money on something I'll probably never use again. Thanks, Jack For the air temps, you could try THIS for only $7. They have others also. I could use this to get a ball park estimate of the temperature. It would give me a read of the surrounding area which should be clost to the temperature.282Views0likes0CommentsRe: 3000W Chinese Gensets Info.
professor95 wrote: BFRXLT wrote: What I am trying to find out is what temperature to expect the oil/air to be under a half load without any enclosure and with an enclosure so I can buy an appropriate gauge for the engine without guessing since I don't have anything that measures temperatures that high and don't want to spend the money on something I'll probably never use again. I believe you will find that a conventional mechanical water temperature gauge will work well. The oil temperature should not exceed 200 to 210 degrees F and can be screwed into the fill hole. As far as exhaust air, the placement of the dry bulb on the gauge for the air temperature can be configured so as to remain in range. I selected the void between the air deflector and lower fins for my sensor bulb. If you follow the coiled black cable to the sensor, you will be able to see the spot I used. The place you have this sensor at is exactly where I was thinking of puting mine at. Are you saying the oil temperature should not be over 210 degrees? It would seem to me the oil would run hotter than that. How did you attach the bulb sensor to the engine? I was thinking of more or less laying where I want it at and using a cable clamp placed on the nearest bolt hole.280Views0likes0CommentsRe: 3000W Chinese Gensets Info.
I have a question for any one whom can answer it. I would like to know what a reasonable temperature I could expect on say a 90 degree day for the oil and the hot exhaust air (not the engine exhaust)? I am talking about the oil temperature I could for the engine oil if I took one of the drain plugs out and put in an oil temperature gauge. I am talking about the air temperature of the cooling air as it leaves the shroud after cooling the engine. If any one has something they have actually measured that would be the best scenario. It doesn't have to be a 90 degree day but the relevant ambient temperature. What I am trying to find out is what temperature to expect the oil/air to be under a half load without any enclosure and with an enclosure so I can buy an appropriate gauge for the engine without guessing since I don't have anything that measures temperatures that high and don't want to spend the money on something I'll probably never use again. Thanks, Jack245Views0likes0CommentsRe: 3000W Chinese Gensets Info.
This is the post that gave my my original inspiration for the project. I don't have 12v at the generator so I am using a few different ideas I found at other places mixed in wiht some of my own ideas. This is the post that started it for me and for that I thank you. professor95 wrote: BFRXLT wrote: I did see this posted. This would not work for my situation. I need more complete sound abatement. How about something like this? Professor95 wrote: Sound Abatement Enclosure Details and Photos Copyright Professor Randy T. Agee, E.ED., October 15, 2007 This is not the first enclosure I have built. But, it is the most thought out and successful enclosure to date. Before building this enclosure I spent several months doing research on noise abatement and transfer of thermal energy. Not that I really needed to, it was more of an exercise in confirming the ideas I had previously developed. My goals were simple: 1. Cool the engine. Keep the cabinet temperature under 170 degrees F in the most severe operating situation. 2. Cool the AVR and alternator. Ideally, keep these components under 140 degrees F. 3. Achieve a noise level equal to (or better than) the Honda 3000 Inverter model. This would be 59dB at 21 feet away under no to moderate loads and 62-63 dB under full load at the same distance. 4. Keep the size and weight as close as possible to the original genset. 5. Allow easy access for service or repair, especially spark plug and oil changes. 6. Keep it safe. Gasoline in a closed compartment disturbed me greatly. I could not come up with a method of achieving this that would let me sleep comfortably at night. 7. The cabinet needed to be weather resistant. 8. Cost was also a factor. I set a limit of $200 for the entire unit. Anything over that was out of the question. 9. And, lastly, re-purpose as many materials and components as possible. This reduces trash in our environment (or at least delays it) and lowers construction/materials cost. I had done some experiments earlier with fuel pumps and remotely mounted gas tanks. The carburetor on the GX200 engine was not designed for a pressurized fuel system. The close as I could get to something that worked was a 2.5 psi electric pump designed to work on 12 VDC, but run on 6VDC. At 12 VDC gas would seep out around the float needle valve. While a system of relays and voltage reducers could make the pump safer and shut it down automatically when the engine stopped, I was still uncomfortable with the design. Gravity feed was an option. But the tank would mount over the top of the enclosure, making access problematic. I just did not like the idea of using gasoline with an enclosure. I began to research LPG options and discovered the conversion was extremely simple, and surprisingly inexpensive. In fact, I could convert to LPG for a comparable cost of a remote electric fuel pump. LPG became a no-brainer. Effectively getting rid of excess heat was a major consideration. Much of the heat from the genset comes from the muffler. It is a giant heat capturing device and radiator. Again, it was a no-brainer that the muffler needed to be relocated outside of the enclosure. The next issue was the volume and path of cooling air. On the Chinese gensets there are two major cooling paths. One is into the grill around the recoil starter and across the cylinder head fins. The other was the movement of air into the alternator grill (on the end) and out the bottom of the alternator near the engine. Simply sucking or blowing air into a box would only serve to recycle lot of hot air. Brute force systems using several large fans might work, but efficiency would be really low. My research had shown that what was needed was a small enclosure that would allow evacuation of air rapidly, a directed airflow into the engine cooling side and an additional cooling intake for the alternator and AVR. My design included a 6” diameter, 12 VDC, 300 CFM exhaust fan, a shroud over the engine intake around the recoil starter to direct air flow, and complete isolation of the air intake on the end of the alternator from hot air in the cabinet. Just for good measure, I added a small 50 CFM fan to the end of the alternator to force cooler outside air across the AVR and alternator coils. This airflow design has proven to work extremely well keeping cabinet temperatures well within the desired maximums. There are many methods to reduce the transfer of sound. The cheapest and perhaps most effective, especially for low frequency reduction, is a small cabinet with very thick open cell material to capture sound pressure. To meet this requirement, I selected a full 2” thick foam insulating board made by Dow Corning. It is available at most home stores in 4x8 foot sheets for less than $25.00 (one brand is pink, another brand is green). The foam board is easily cut with a common saw and really smooth edges can be accomplished on a table saw using a fine tooth blade and slow feed. Openings are cut with a fine tooth saber saw set on a low speed. Once sized, the foam board can be painted with a latex paint “as-is” or laminated. I chose to laminate mine with Filon, a 1/8” thick fiberglass board similar to the material used on the outside of many campers. It is available at home stores for less than $30 for a 4x8 foot sheet. It can be trimmed with a router using a laminate bit. Just be sure to use a latex contact adhesive. Other adhesives may dissolve the foam board. I had previously made a new frame for the genset from surplus angle iron re-purposed from discarded bed rails. This made it easy to attach the foam panels since the surface was flat and square. If one lacks welding equipment, I am of the opinion a similar frame could be made of hardwood 2”x2” lumber. The foam panels were attached with Velcro. I used the industrial variety. It doesn’t take much to securely hold the foam board in place and it is not affected by the heat in the box. Open gaps between foam board and angle iron faces caused by the pieces of Velcro were filled with 1/8” thick rubber gasket material used to seal camper caps to the bed of pickup trucks. The stock front genset panel was retained. A piece of ¾” thick, Formica laminated outdoor grade plywood was cut to fit the contour of the stock panel and then covered with Filon. I used plywood here since I needed a rigid panel to mount accessories. Cutting this piece on the bandsaw was scary – it was the same saw I severed my left little finger on last May 14th. This was the first time I had used it since the accident. I did need to use spacers under the OEM genset panel to get the right offset for a flush fit to the plywood. Both cooling fans were 12 VDC. The genset was electric start, so a relay was needed to energize the 12 volts to the fans. I had a surplus 120 VAC single pole, single throw relay in my junk box. I connected the coil of this relay to the output of the generator. When the generator started, it would pull in the relay and supply 12 VDC to the fans. If there had been no battery, I could have just direct connected the fans to the 12 VDC out of the genset. I needed good venture vacuum to prime the engine so it would start or an electric solenoid that could push the primer on the demand regulator. US Carb does sell an electric primer solenoid as part of their RSK kit, but that was more money to spend. To get the vacuum, I had to retain the choke. So that a remote start system could be implemented, the choke needed to be electric. I borrowed a 12 VDC solenoid from an old surplus computer disk drive. The solenoid was configured to pull in the choke on start. Other solenoids such as those used on automotive door locks should work equally as well. I found two surplus automotive gauges in my junk box. One was an automotive water temperature gauge, the other a DC voltmeter. I placed the probe for the water temperature gauge against the cylinder head fins on the engine. I now have a head temperature gauge. As an added safety feature, I exchanged the 120 volt, 20 amp outlet for a GFCI outlet. I changed the wiring behind the control panel so that the cooling fans were before the GFCI outlet. This was done to be sure a GFCI trip would not stop cooling. I added a new circuit breaker for the inside outlet used to fed the 120 volt relay for the cooling fans. Changing oil could be a problem with an enclosure. I ran a tube from thbe engine's oil drain plug to outside of the front panel to make this service a whole lot easier. I had previously purchased a "hatch" from West Marine for use on my boat, and then decided not to use it. While not necessary since the top of the enclosure is removable, I felt like I should use the hatch somewhere and decided what better place than the top of the box for quick and easy access. Were all of my objectives met? You bet they were! 58dB at 21 feet with low to moderate load. 62dB with the air conditioner compressor locked in on the camper. This system is as quite as, if not quieter than the Honda Inverter. It beats any installed motor home genset hands down. Temperatures inside the box all fell within my established limits, even on a hot 90 degree October afternoon.. My total cost was also well under the $200 limit I had established. This is one quite and cool puppy! (Additional Photo Links) 21 foot view view with top off 150 VAC full scale meter to replace 300 VAC full scale meter only front panel on - sides off bringing starter rope to front panel added HR meter to keep track of service due intervals generator end engine panel showing 6" to 8" ductwork transition used as fan shroud real-time air temp reading inside cabinet211Views0likes0CommentsRe: 3000W Chinese Gensets Info.
professor95 wrote: Old & Slow wrote: snip..... For the portable open frame genestS we need a PORTABLE solution. Panels that will either fold or be carried loose. When I was much younger, I was told an Ostrich would stick his head in the sand when frightened. Apparently the Ostrich thought that if he could not hear or see what was going on around him he would be safe. Years later, when I would be presenting something to a class, and a student would turn around and make a statement exactly like the one I had just presented, I would walk over to the student, smile, and ask if he had his head in the sand? Of course, not too many of them knew what I was talking about. But, it still got a laugh while emphasizing a point about needing to pay attention. Perhaps I need to ask the same question today? Over year ago I posted a photo of a simple, portable "dog house" enclosure made of 1/4" fan-fold insulation board. It set-up in seconds, was assembled with common duct tape and secured with available weights like rocks, firewood, etc., was easily folded and slipped under a mattress, remained waterproof, significantly reduced sound levels in 4 different directions and allowed for cooling of the genset. At the time, several forum readers abuilt one, tried it and liked it. One even used a cardboard box as a result with good results. I reposted this info with a photo just a few days ago. I guess it went totally unnoticed? It works as a PORTABLE solution. Panels that will either fold or be carried loose. What more can I say? I would also like to point out that my sound abatement work went far beyond the early experiments with the ELM3000. On 10/8/07 I published/posted a full report on a very successful sound abetment design based on extensive research of sound absorption, reflection, refraction and the movement of air currents needed to cool the generator and engine. I did this so fellow forum members could benefit from my research in designing their own enclosures. Search back to the date andy you will find the complete posting. When Brad built his enclosure after mine, he was considerate enough to reference my work and design as beneficial to his design. Thank-you, Brad, for being a true gentleman and giving credit where credit was due. I did see this posted. This would not work for my situation. I need more complete sound abatement.211Views0likes0CommentsRe: 3000W Chinese Gensets Info.
Old & Slow wrote: INTERESTING 'ads by Google' About Noise Control. What product might work and what you are able to purchase is small quantities are two shades of gray. Of the few I have tried, some would waste your time to read about. The need for Noise Reduction for our gensets, portable or factory installed, is Universal. I have not heard the factory installed water cooled Honda but all other factory installed gennys are too loud to be friends with my OLD ears. Some better than others. BUT on this thread '3000w Chinese GensetS info' we are All in need of the best solution possible for sound abatement. Ideas are beginning to come the left and right. This is exciting. Prof95 started the ball rolling with the Elm 3000 project, I do believe. A lot was to be learned from those first pictures. Nay sayers posted their thoughts. I found from Brad's thread, much is to be learned from the 'nay sayers' Anyway, this is the way I see it. For the portable open frame genestS we need a PORTABLE solution. Panels that will either fold or be carried loose. Most posts from the RV user indicate the genset is carried in a pickup. However the genset is transported, it NEEDS sound reduction. Floyd I am in the process of trying to do this very thing right now. I want my portable generator to be portable. The first thing I did was to transfer it to one of those "garden carts", you know the wagons that are used for carrying stuff in your garden much like the radio flyer wagon except with automotive style steering. Once I get it quiet I will post some pictures of the process and materials I used to accomplish the task. I have other things going on so I can't concentrate all my time on this one thing so be patient.244Views0likes0CommentsRe: 3000W Chinese Gensets Info.
PETE BEALE wrote: SORRY IF THIS OFFENDS ANYONE.But if you must go out and purchase thes cheep chinese products,then do not compain that America is in a financial downward crash course....If you do not buy the products that your countryman produce then he cannot buy what YOU produce!!!! EASY REALLY.WHEN I GO TO CHINA AND SEE THEM DRIVING US RVs,I WILL THINK DIFERENTLY. PETE BEALE UK. ( if a man fights on my side,I will fight on his side).STICK TOGETHER PLEASE. I could be wrong but I think one would be hard pressed to find many things including a generator that is truly "Made in the USA" these days.268Views0likes0Comments
