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Re: Water on rubber Roof
Hi StirCrazy, The moisture meter is a whole post topic by itself, and your quest for more info on it has inspired me to create a post about it here on the new GS forum. 🙂 The stand alone post is in the works, now, but it will take me some time to finish. Maybe a week etc with what I have going on right now. But it will come as there are a lot of folks who can benefit from knowing about a moisture meter and how to use it on there camper. I'll give you the cliff notes version here, as this can help JK1. See this post on the Sunline Owners Club forum where I first started using a moisture meter. https://www.sunlineclub.com/forums/f71/moisture-meters-for-inspecting-a-camper-17613.html That post from 2017 was the start of my using the meter and all it can do to find leaks you cannot see or smell. Over the last seven years I have used it a lot on many campers to find moisture that you cannot see. Many owners who's camper in looked at with it was shocked and they could not see any water signs in the living space. And when we opened up the camper, it was wet. That Sunline post may hold you over until I get the Good Sam updated post up. As a perk, Lowes right now is clearanceing the model I use, not sure why but they will not be this cheap again for the level of feature that specific meter can do. https://www.lowes.com/pd/General-Tools-Instruments-Digital-Test-Meter/50284821 On the General Instrument web site that model is still for sale. It may be at Lowes they now offers a Kobolt meter, their brand and no longer want to offer the higher end featured one I use. You may have to order it online if the local store of out of them. I just bought 2 more, a spare for me and one for my son for his camper. Anyone owning camper ideally has one if you plan to keep a camper a long time. Sooner or later you will need to use it. Hope this helps, John768Views0likes0CommentsRe: Water on rubber Roof
Hi JK1, Your pictures help show what you are talking about and a few things that still may need to be discussed. As I stated, I restore older water-damaged campers. I'm not a shop for hire; I have a somewhat extreme retirement hobby in repairing campers for a host of friends and family. I am now on my 16th water-damaged camper, so I will pass along what I know to help you as a fellow camper. I'll refrain from telling you what to do with your dealer or Keystone. I tried to find your camper on the Dutchmen site and have yet to find it; maybe you can tell us the year and model; a new camper may be a year or two older. Better, post a link to your camper on the website. The larger Coleman Lantern's are here, https://www.dutchmen.com/product/coleman-lantern#standardsOptions The smaller Coleman here, https://www.dutchmen.com/product/coleman#standardsOptions Neither of those campers seem to line up with the roof shot you sent by the vents in the roof. I wanted to confirm the roof makeup; the larger Lantern uses 3/8" OSB decking. The smaller one, well, it doesn't say what they use. Your camper, being smaller, may or may not use 3/8" decking, which is for direct walk-on roofs. Yours may be a non-walk-on direct roof without support, which needs a tarp placed on the membrane to protect the membrane and small pieces of plywood over the trap to span the rafters to service the roof. If you know for sure your roof is a full walk-on roof, please confirm this. Now, to your picture. I drew on it so that we could talk about it. The depression is not in a normal ponding place. Here is where the roof decking, need to know, comes into place. If the deck is 3/8" OSB, well, that depression may have come from manufacturing; oops, it got crushed, and they just let it go. 3/8" decking at the edge of a camper where a lot of support does typically not sink. But, if you have a non-walk-on roof, then they can use a thinner, lighter substrate to glue the membrane, too, and that thin substrate can be more easily damaged. The lighter substrate non-walk-on roofs save weight and allow more cargo capacity on some brands of camper. Now, what do you do with it? From my camper restoration background, I would do this, and it may be harder for you to do, but I think you can at least do the investigation to have a better place more info to talk with Keystone or the dealer. I use a moisture meter to scan for wetness. I have used these a lot, and once I understood what the readings were telling me, they have never failed to find something wet that you cannot see from the outside. I use the General Instruments Model #MMD7NP pinless moisture meter in "wall" mode. It gives a 0 to 100% reading of relative wetness, not % of moisture, like a pin-type meter can. It scans up to 3/4" deep behind the sensor for anything wet. And there is then the learning curve of what the numbers mean. Here are the steps I would take. Clean the black mold/dirt off the area. Mold can hold moisture in some cases. Let the roof dry. Using a pinless moisture meter, scan the area where the depression is and around it. Confirm the area is dry or has a level of moisture. If the system comes up dry, this helps take one course of action. If it comes up wet/damp in the number range, something is going on, which means there is a different course of action. This meter inspection only takes a few minutes but tells a lot. Let me know if you want more on the meter; they only cost ~ $45 or so if you want to buy one, the right type for non-destructive testing. Next is the red circle area. This might or might not be a picture anomaly, but the membrane looks slightly puffed up. A few light taps with the finger may show it is rock solid glued to the decking, or if it is loose, it is not glued down tight. Do not do this test on a hot summer afternoon; do it in the morning when it is cooler. The membrane can shrink tight when hot and be puffed up when cooler temps. This adds another piece of info to go with the moisture meter test on what may be happening or happened. I'll explain when we know if this is puffed up and wet, dry and puffed up, or dry and tight. What can be a course of action? Fix it or let it go? If we can understand there is no water damage, that helps as it creates the start of, this is not a bad thing to live with. If it is wet, it is time to create a get-well plan. More on this when the inspection is over, Next is the red arrow I put on there. If you want to keep this camper for a long time, I highly recommend that the joint between the gutter rail and the roof membrane be cleaned, let dry, and then sealed with a non-sag/non-leveling lap sealant compatible with your TPO roof. Dicor and Alfa Systems make these products. It will only take approx. 1 tube of caulk to do both sides. Less than $10 to $20 for the caulk and some time can save you a lot of heartache in the future. Some RV manufacturers leave that joint un-caulked. All I can say is it's a cost-cutting measure. That joint has been a source of water intrusion as the camper ages. You may make it through the warranty period, but not if you want to keep the camper for many years. I have seen it and had to repair the camper due to its absence. Attempting to get Keystone or another RV manufacturer to agree that this needs to be caulked will not get you very far. Just take it upon yourself to correct it. Oh, and I suggest you store the camper level. The thought of storing it off-level can sooner or later create issues. The roof draining level allows for a more even water flow off and down the siding than allowing water to be less in one direction but flood another area. Yes, the roof should not leak in any situation, but when you flood one area more, the odds are higher against you that a roof seam or siding joint, where any opening is, will, in time, leak. Siding penetration leaks can be as bad if not worse than roof joint leaks. Hope this helps, John819Views0likes2CommentsRe: Bumper Hitch and Load Question for Bikes - 2019 Coleman Lantern 244BH Travel Trailer
Hi Russell, I know you are new to the travel trailer scene, you told us. Please tell us what year/brand/model camper, if you use a weight disturbing hitch, and what brand model is that and what the truck is. Taking bikes to camp many times is a problem. I have had them on the back of the camper, never do that again. I had them on the front of the 2500 Suburban, that worked well for the bikes, but created lighting issues and potential legal lighting law issues. And with 4 bikes, a tranny heat issue. We only had 2 bikes and a mild tranny heat change, my camping buddy had the same truck with 4 bikes and it over heated one hot summer day. He had to take the bikes apart and store them in pieces to get home. The rear bumper of the travel trailer in my view is a "no". There are just too many issues to overcome. I suspect your camper does not have shock absorbers and we do not know the rear overhang of the camper aft of the rear axle hanger. The wrong combo on the back of a camper can really take a beating on the bike rack and the camper frame pending what you have. The double receiver idea presented, until we know what tow vehicle and if you are using a WD hitch, the double receiver may not be a working option. What I ended up doing, after and knowing some of what not to do, was create a 2 bike rack on the A-frame of the TT. This works well, BUTTTTT the A frame has to be able to handle it, the WD hitch has to be able to handle it, the truck suspension has to be able to handle it and the truck receiver has to be able to handle it. Give us some more info on your setup and we may be able to help with something that might fit. Hope this helps, John681Views0likes0CommentsRe: Water on rubber Roof
Hi JK1, I may be able to help. I have restored many water-roof-damaged campers and can pass along some of what I have seen and found when doing roof repairs. A few things, you called your roof to be a rubber roof. Sadly, the RV industry stopped using actual EPDM rubber a number of years ago. TPO and PVC membranes are now very common for travel trailers. Both are a plastic formulation, no rubber at all. This link to the Coleman site states the Lantern model uses a TPO membrane on a 3/8" decked full walk on arched roof. https://www.dutchmen.com/product/coleman-lantern#constructionOption If you have something other then the what I found, please tell us what it is you have. The pooling or ponding as many roofers call it, can be a long term problem depending where the ponding is occurring and if it constantly ponds in the same spot. Repetitive ponding happens when the decking has sagged and there is a low spot when the camper is setup level or even nose up or down sometimes. Left over dirt and mold as time goes on will create a discoloration in the ponding area. The water evaporates and what is left is the mold/dirt etc. concentrated in that area. The actual membrane can withstand the ponding in it's virgin form, however any caulking/roof sealants that are under water during ponding can be a problem over time. Can you post a few pics of the roof showing the discoloration and where it is located in relation to any roof seams? It is easier to talk to what you are seeing then just generic answers. I hope this helps. John942Views0likes1CommentRe: Jackery instead of generator
Hi wildfntz, Your question sounds simple, but it needs to be put into context of what you are trying to do with a Jackery unit. The Jackery in it's basic form is a portable battery bank. It is sized to deliver a pre-determined amount of electricity before it runs out of electricity and then has to be recharged. Now enter, how much electricity do you want to deliver over what time period. And how will you recharge back into the Jackery (battery bank) all the power you used and how long does that take with what you have to recharge it with? In order to sustain the same power use need over time, you have to have equal to, and ideally, greater than, the ability to recharge the Jackery fast enough to not run out of power before the recharge is complete. You mentioned camping without electric hook up's. Some of us call this boondocking, others call it camping off grid, they all mean the same thing, you are getting the electric power you need to camp with from somewhere other then the electric hookup. Now enter how many hours, days, weeks etc. you want to be off grid. Here is the issue with a Jackery, or even a battery bank on the camper, how long/how big will the one you buy last? And how long will it take to recharge it? In order to sustain days and days (weeks or months) of being off grid, you have to create a power use plan and recharge plan to be sustainable in all weather conditions you will be camping at. If you are using a camper, such as a travel trailer, fifth wheel, etc. the Jackery by itself and even some with a small solar panel to recharge is going to have a hard time being sustainable. The recharge fast enough is the issues and in all weather conditions in which you camp. If you are tent camping and only need power to recharge cells phones or other small devices, a Jackery may get you through enough days to meet your needs and then recharge it when you get back home. This is a very different situation then off gird camping in a camper with lights, water pump, fridge, LP furnace etc. I hope this helps explain a little of what you will need to determine if a Jackery will work for you. John1.7KViews0likes0CommentsRe: Oxygenics Fury RV Handheld Shower head --COLD drip
We used to have the issue also, and while we now have the Oxygenic, the same problem of cold blast happened on the OEM one that did not 100% shut off either. I did solve the problem by installing a positive shut off at the hose fitting on the shower faucet. We boondock a lot and cannot afford to waste water. We do navy showers as it is sometimes called, wet yourself, shut water off, soap up, rinse, shut off, shampoo hair, then final rinse. I had to find a brand that was 100% shut off and did not leak and would fit in the space. I had to unscrew the faucet from the wall, spin on the new valve, put faucet back on then put the hose on. Short of buying a new RV....LOL. here is the issue with the cold blast and leaking shower. Or at least one explanation on why. I'm assuming your camper has a tank type water heater that uses a one 3 way selector valve on the bottom cold water inlet, and a check valve and T on the top hot water outlet of the water heater as part of the winterizing kit. Yes/no? Assuming the answer is, yes, here is what can happen on that little drip. The little drip is a small leak in the midst of a pressurized water system. This effect can happen when using city water or onboard tank water and pump. The drip is a very small flow, but yet it is flow and the shower head is open to both the hot and cold water faucet. That drip flow will come from the water pipe with the least effort to allow the drip flow. Now enter the water heater discharge check valve. That check valve has a spring loaded normally closed poppet check in it. That spring may have 2 or 3 lb (etc) of force holding the check valve poppet closed. When the dripping shower head wants to drip water, the water flow it will come from the water pipe with the least resistance to allow a drip of flow. The cold water pipe has no check valve and even if there is only a small difference in pressure drop to get flow, the cold water pipe wins as the flow is smaller then the larger flow which is needed to allow flow to open the hot water check valve when both the hot and cold faucets are open. To get more technical on this, we need to look at all the pressure drop places in the camper. If the cold water pipe had lots more elbows and other restrictions in the water line, then the spring force of the hot water check valve, then hot water line would win and it would drip hot water or a blend of hot and cold. If you change the winterizing kit to a two, 3 way valve setup, it gets rid of the spring check. That might change the water drip to be a little more warm of a blend as now some hot water can blend with the cold in the amount of the water the size of a drip. How much blend will come from how many elbows and other restrictions are on each hot and cold water line. Fiddling with getting a positive on/off valve that works at the shower faucet may be the easier fix. If you want, I can get a pic of my shut off and maybe the brand. It was a store generic brand out of Menards Lumber yard. Hope this helps John1.6KViews0likes1CommentRe: Just Bad Luck?
Hi Spiker, First off, you are very welcome. I'm glad to help as much as I can for a fellow RV'er. Yes, I feel your pain in thinking you hired a good inspection. You did the right thing by having the unit inspected; the issue was that whoever did it fell short of doing a good one. Even good shops have a mess up, but what can define the shop is what happens after the mess up happens. We all learn from these things. While some of us are more mechanically inclined than others, how does the average RV'er even know what to ask or assume is done when the shop says they inspected it? Your situation may have been the perfect storm on the running gear. That does not give the shop a get-out-of-jail-free card, though; these issues should have been caught. Having dealt with enough used campers and how they can fail, my opinion is that any used camper needs a complete running gear and tire inspection, including a bearing grease repack, detail tire inspection, frame crack check, and brake inspection/adjustment before the new owner takes it down the road. A dealer can charge for this or use it as a selling incentive. But at least address it. To sum this up, for those following along, the learning is to have something in writing, ideally or at least verbally; what exactly does the shop do when they call it an inspection? It is a red flag if they do not give you any details. Many shops have a checklist at least they give to the tech when a used camper comes in and is prepped for sale; that list is a starting place to talk to. A used camper can have many areas with issues, such as roof caulking, siding caulking, roof or siding leaks, LP gas system checks, appliances, slide drive systems if the camper has a slide, running gear & RV main trailer frame inspection, holding tank leaks, power converter operation, battery health, and so on. It takes "time" and experience to spot all these things. Find a shop or person you can trust if you cannot do this inspection yourself. Sometimes, this is easier said than done, but our RV forum/community is an excellent place to start. Your post alone is a prime example of what to watch out for. Ask questions and become as educated as you can going into this. You are on the get-well track now; good for you. Have fun camping. John3.2KViews1like5CommentsRe: How to test Converter voltage
Hi, From your description, you may have a bad battery, a bad converter, or both. If your camper uses a 12-volt lead acid battery, these would be the voltages you can look for. Ideally, you need a digital voltmeter with at least 1, but 2 decimal places are better. Yes, you have to look for at least one decimal place. There is not a lot of voltage change, but you can see differences to tell what is going on. Assuming the camper has been plugged in and the converter was on, you can start here. Unhook the battery negative wire, or turn off the battery disconnect, or unplug shore power to remove the power converter from the battery. Test the battery terminals with the meter. What is that voltage? This is a starting place. Since the power converter was on, the battery may have a surface charge on it. More on this surface charge later. Now, hook battery the back up, or turn on the disconnect, or plug in the shore power. Now test at the battery terminals. These voltages should be in this range. 13.25 VDC = float charge. (if your converter has float mode) 13.65 VDC = standard charge. 14.4 VDC = boost charge. (if your converter has 3 stage charging) The readings may be +/- 0.10 approx. from the above target points. They should not be lower then 13.0/12.9 or a lot more then 14.5/14.6 VDC, if they are lower or higher, there is a problem. After testing the above, here is a battery test. Unhook the battery from the converter by what means you have the easiest way. Take a battery voltage test at the terminal. Record the number. Then wait, over night or at least 8 hours, take another battery voltage test. Record the number. Waiting the 8 hrs lets any surface charge drain off and then the battery is at rest. Here is a few voltages for a battery at rest for a lead acid battery. 12.73 VDC = 100% state of charge 12.10 VDC = 50% state of charge 11.81 VDC = 30% state of charge As you can see, you need the decimal place as 1 volt is a lot of change. Your battery might read above 12.73 VDC (13.0 plus volts) when it just came off the power converter, but that higher voltage will drift down over the 8 hours of non battery use and you get the battery at rest voltage which is what you are after. See this link to the Trojan battery maintenance for a complete chart on voltage. Scroll to the "II Open Circuit Voltage Test" https://www.trojanbattery.com/resources/battery-maintenance A power converter going bad, can fail in a few ways, it goes high voltage and boils out the battery killing the battery. It stops working all together and no longer charges the battery. It goes low voltage, this then hurts the battery draining it below its fully charged state. When the power converter goes bad, it can kill a good battery. And a bad battery, may or may not hurt a good working converter. If you tell us the brand and model converter, the year and make of the camper, the voltage readings from above, we can help better. And confirm what battery type you have. Hope this helps John5.1KViews0likes0CommentsRe: tst 507
I have the TST 507 system. I use it on the truck and the camper. My 2005 F350 is old enough that it does not have TPM installed as OEM. I fully agree that you want metal valve stems. The rubber stems can fatigue from the sensor being on the all rubber stem. As for loosing signal, years ago this was reported as an issue and to solve it on long distances, a repeater/signal booster was to be installed. I am on my 2nd TST system, the first system, the repeater was an extra add on device. On the last new color display system I bought, the repeater came standard with the kit. Point being, you may want/need the signal booster pending distance. We have a 32 ft TT (aluminum sided) with a crew cab, 6 1/2' bed F350 and I have never lost signal, but I do have the repeater wired in, installed in the camper front cargo hole of the camper. I really like the TST system. Hope this helps John530Views1like0CommentsRe: Just Bad Luck?
Hi Spiker, Your axle misfortune is a perfect learning topic. My technical brain is always curious about these kinds of failures. Was it an axle location overload, a bad casting, prior maintenance not done, etc? The grease in the hub pic with the tire you posted is too far away to see much detail inside the hub. Ideally, a pic of the top shaft length of the axle spindle showing detail, might show some clues too. On the hub, a close up of the cracked metal, ideally with it not covered in grease, in the casting may turn up some clues also. Metal fatigue and cracks leave tracks in the crack profile. Did this fail due to one large instantaneous overload, or did the crack start, and over time rip itself until it let go? This is all muddied up with the missing brake parts. If the brake parts where on the brake plate when the wheel come off, they should be somewhere near the point where the wheel came off, and they are not. The odds are extremely low they vaporized during the wheel flying off event. Speculation now comes into play, did the camper have an event in the past where the brake assembly had a failure? And if it did, did someone remove the brake shoes put the drum back on and tow it home. They got fed up and traded it in. Every time I go into a camper electric brake setup for maintenance, a surprise may be inside. And sadly, this can happen on new brakes and more so on older campers. By chance, did you look to see if the brake wiring behind the brake plate was unhooked? If an event happened that someone had to gut out the parts in the brake to get home from being stuck on the road, they may have unhooked the wiring so that wheel would not short out the brake system. I know this sound a bit far fetched, but maybe not. The missing parts had to go somewhere? Two different brand tires, that points to the camper had a tire failure before. Tires on the camper that are out of round, that points to tires coming apart inside from either under inflation, overload, or not enough reserve capacity and inter-ply shear started ripping the tire apart. All this happened before you ever owned the camper. It takes time for this slow disaster to build and then come apart. Next steps, you have made a wise choice upgrading to 5,200# axles and 12" brakes. My personal opinion, they should of been there from day one. This is an RV industry issue. I'm assuming you are also upgrading the leaf springs to 5,200# per pair to match the new axle tubes? The 4,400# axles would only have springs to match the axle tube. As to the dealer who inspected the camper before you acquired it, I can see how these areas could of been missed. I'm not defending them, just stating how this may have come down. They had the shop do a look over "without" doing checks or taking anything apart. While a quick visual by a trained eye can see many things, in order to find out of round tires, missing brake parts, possible overloaded axles, it will take shop time to dig into this. The brakes, did they put a clamp on DC amp meter on the emergency breakaway switch, pull the pin and measure the current? The should get close to 12 amps, this at least tells all 4 magnets are hooked up and holding to the brake drum. It's a quick check, that can find wiring issues or the E breakaway switch fast, and did not take a lot of time. The camper being as old as it is, should of had a brake inspection, bearing re-pack done and a brake adjustment. They could of even charged you for it, or told you it was included as a selling point. This would of given a good bill of health to the brake system. While the camper is up on 4 jacks doing a bearing re-pack, you can check the camber in the axle tubes when the axle is unloaded. If the bend in the middle of the axle is not in the league of when it was new, the axle was subjected to an overload somewhere along the way. This check does not take a lot of time when the camper is up on jack stands for brake work, but it does take understanding on how to do it, and then to do it. And, when the tires are off, do a good visual on the suspension for worn spring bushings, the equalizer and the shackles. This check gets a little more involved, but knowing where to look, you can see play in the bushings and wear when it starts getting excessive. There is a reason Dexter recommends a suspension check every 6,000 miles. By the time 8,000 to 10,000 miles comes, nylon bushings can be worn through and metal to metal grinding going on. The tires, being past the 3 years age mark, did they did a tire spin test? Jack the camper up to get the wheel off the ground, place a wood block etc by the tread, spin the wheel and look for out of round tires. Doing this spin test as part of a brake maintenance, does not take a lot of time. Internal damage going on inside the tire. This one, is hard to get a true answer. While broken cords in the tire could be found by visual and the spin test, if the cords have not yet separated, it is complicated to almost not doable to detect tire abuse due to under inflation, overloading or lack of enough reserve capacity, but the damage is in the tire. Experience can show, in these cases, tire age, seeing attributes miss-matched tires, the only course of a fix, replace the tires and start out with a known setup. What I said above, I have come to learn through failures on dealing with restoring older campers and helping friends with new campers. I doubt the above may be standard practice, it costs time and money to do it. If all the above was done, and if the new owner knew to even ask if they could do it, even if they charged labor, it could of helped you not have your failures. We all learn from each other in these cases, where we can show and discuss things in a positive way. Hope this helps and have fun camping with the new camper. John3.2KViews0likes1Comment
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