Minimum Wage

sonora wrote:

Lynn0527 wrote:

4X4Dodger wrote:

Lynn0527 wrote:

I think this is just a rationalization for being a cheapskate. Tourism is an industry and unfortunately an industry that doesn't historically pay well. People make their money from us visiting their shops, buying their handicrafts. Inflation? Inflation on nothing is nothing. What are you worried you might have to pay 10 cents more for your taco. Come on, open up your wallet and help out those that aren't as fortunate as us. My nephew is 19 years old and makes over $17.00 an hour just because is was born in Canada. Mexicans have a history of corrupt governments, very little in terms of a social safety net and if not educated little chance to make the same kind of money my uneducated 19 year old nephew can make. Sorry, I don't mean to be rude but your arguments for not helping others who have less is truly disconcerting.

I will let your rudeness pass because I am sure that if you had spent the years I have living and working in countries like Bolivia, Sierra Leone, Cambodia and Egypt you would see this problem through different eyes as I do. I come to this argument with Real World experience. It is not a rationalization. Overspending and throwing around lots of money over and above the local costs of things brings on inflation. That inflation hurts the locals the most.

As for the tourism industry being a low paying job: That is true in many Western Industrialized countries. However it is the opposite in most developing or "3rd World" countries. The Tourism industry jobs are most times better paying with greater benefits than their local "mom and pop" store counterparts. ie. the person working in a foreign owned international hotel (lets say in Bolivia or Mexico) will generally earn MORE than their cousin doing the same job in a local business catering mostly to the non-tourist, non-expat community.

In addition many of these Tourist oriented/foreign owned/local-foreign partnerships help pay for English lessons, College level courses and give, in some cases, quite generous bonuses.

In countries I mentioned above a job in the tourist sector of the economy is a sought after and very desirable opportunity. It represents direct access to US dollars, Many times a higher wage and the ability to learn English which in most countries I mention is the SINGLE most important factor in getting a better job in ANY sector of the economy.

I understand your feelings But they don't change the facts as they truly exist for the locals.

The best way to help people is with good jobs, education and justice...not a handout.

When I worked in Egypt (2 years) (in the tourism industry by the way) A jewelry seller I knew who had a shop and a quite nice one at that often approached people on the street to sell things at opportune moments (like a ship coming in) He asked me over tea one night "Why do all your people think me Poor? They insult me with always wanting to give me more than we agree upon. You westerners are sometimes very arrogant in your ideas about us" And why do they get so angry when they bargain? This is our way...."
His daughters went to school in London and the US.

In this same conversation he went on to complain about the French because they were truly cheapskates and didnt want to pay what they had agreed to...

Just a view from the other side of the fence.

Just as an aside, you don't know my travel history or work history so you are assuming quite a lot. Sorry but I thought we were discussing Mexican's and the situation in Mexico and minimum wage, not Egyptians. I wasn't referring to the educated Mexicans who work in the tourist industry. Some of them are probably well paid (perhaps the ones that work at the front desk of chain hotels or high end restaurants) but I bet the ladies that make the beds and clean the rooms are not well paid and if a little tip of $5.00 helps them and makes them feel their work is appreciated, then I am of the mind to help them out and thank them.

The Egyptian you speak of must be one in a million because I am familiar with the Egyptian culture and most Egytians work very hard to put one over on you. Not to be derogatory but they view bargaining a good deal (maybe even what North Americans might consider cheating) as being savvy at business.

I just really feel that as a traveller we should leave a positive impression and be cognisant of the people around us. When I travel I always feel just a little bit guilty about what I have in comparison to others. For a lot of people one might meet from other countries, it is just a dream to them to be able to travel to another country. We are very fortunate people and I believe we should share that fortune with others. Upsetting the world economics is stretching it a little.

Guilt ridden people are at the core of many of the worlds problems. If you worked hard for your money and earned it why feel guilty? If you did not work hard and earn your money I can then understand your guilt and perhaps you should give it back.

Because others don't have the same opportunities as I did growing up in Canada. You can't compare my lifestyle with someone who has nothing and no opportunity to improve their life. Comparing myself to other North Americans, no I would never feel guilty. I worked for every penny I have but I was able to go to University, I was able to get a high paying job, I was able to travel with my job and see the world. I had many advantages, that is the point I am trying to make. Life is not fair to everyone.

Working hard has absolutely nothing to do with how much money anyone makes. All over the world people work very hard for very little money. Now even in the US it has become more and more difficult for hard workers to get ahead. Yes, in some situations and for some people it is possible that hard work can earn you more money if opportunity presents itself. We in the US have been very lucky to have been born here. I do not think we should feel guilty - we should feel lucky. When we find ourselves in places where people are less fortunate than we are we like to share just a little bit of our good fortune with others (we are not fortunate enough to share a whole lot as we do not have a whole lot - but we have a great deal more than many others). Some old saying (I forget exact words) "there but for the grace of God go I". Meaning something helped us to have a better life than many others. As we travel to other parts of the world - including Mexico - we see some of the hardest working people on the planet who work for next to nothing. Another old saying " being in the right place at the right time". This also has to do with luck or good fortune or whatever you want to call it. I think the vast majority of people on this planet who work very hard still find little reward monetarily for their efforts. I have known some pretty dumb and lazy do nothing people who have found ways to get rich - or conned their way into well paying jobs - who have no clue what hard work means. They got lucky - and probably say they worked hard to get where they are. I worked very hard all my life but never learned how to make much money - I did OK but never got off the bottom rung of the middle class ladder. I never knew how. Never got that lucky. But being born in the US I still know I am luckier than much of the rest of the planet. So no guilt. Just the knowledge that we are lucky and maybe we spread a little of our luck around to others.

Most of the "information" in this thread is skewed or flat-out wrong.

The minimum wage benefits including Seguro, vaccaiones, and aquinalgo, are for full time employees and it is best to read up on the laws before hiring someone to work more than a day or two in a week's period.

Bartering is a way of life in traditional and indigenous communities. For especially vegetables, fruits and other aborrotes and alimentos. If you pay what they first ask, they hand it over with a grin and lose all respect for you. You are then a big wheel where money is no object and therefore a focal point of contempt. Fresas y crema.

Barter a 200 peso a day worker down to 150 and you will be lucky to get 80 pesos a day worth of work out of him.

Masero(a)'s have a saying

We survive on our wages
We live on our tips

If you are staying in a hotel several days, try laying a 50 peso note on your pillow. Some managers are wise to this and will run over the moment you leave for the day and steal it. If it gets into the hands of the maid prepare yourself to pampering - mounds of fresh towels, a night stand topped with extra bottles of drinking water, and a room scrubbing the likes of which you've never seen.

A five dollar gift is treasured more than a ten dollar tip. Yes they need the money but a gift comes from the heart. Want to reward a good mechanic? Give him the present of a tool. One top of the line twenty dollar tool is valued and appreciated more than a thirty dollar set of cheap tools.

In tierra frio, a large comforter is priceless. Queen or king because the whole family is going to squeeze under it. Flashlights that plug into the wall with LITHIUM battery is another excellent choice. A five D cell will just sit after ten dollars worth of batteries go flat.

Women LOVE a good frying pan or pot. Don't get cheap now. A T-Fal or Revere ware stainless is where it's at. Mexico is full of overpriced garbage. Remember the from the heart part of gift giving.

Shovels, rakes, and other garden tools with FIBERGLASS handles are treasured. A hoe, a stupid hoe, hand forged (heavy as hell) costs EIGHT HUNDRED EIGHTY PESOS seventy bucks any which way you look at it. General Electric 26-watt DAYLIGHT CFL lamps are priceless. So is the GE 10-watt DAYLIGHT spiral. But GENERAL ELECTRIC, not Feit, not Lights of America, G.E. only.

Giving a man a small kit of ATO fuses and tail light bulbs is good for him and good for you. Too many Mexican men squander extra money on beer, cigarettes and the lottery. When they have a bag of fuses and lamp bulbs you are less likely to smack into them on the road.

Tipping and gift giving becomes addictive. Try it and see. How the hell does "guilt" enter into the picture here? You are GRINGO not mexicano. Gringos are hoped to leave bigger tips. It does not spoil a waiter in a traditional restaurant. Having night after night of drunk gringos drop hundreds of dollars in a tourist palace like Cabo Wobble or Senor Frags, is what screws up the waiters.

If I encounter a price too high, I smile and move on. No gun barrel imprints on my forehead. Everything in gringolandia Mexico is priced too high, starting with absurd rents for business locations. Shine it on. It ain't Mexico. Some purists hate and rant at Cabo San Loco and Cantcun. I move in, sweep the joint for condiments and stuff I can't find elsewhere then head down the road Duggin. I have tens of millions of fellow Mexicanos that must life a lifestyle similar to mine so I'm not alone.

But I DESPISE wealthy Mexicans. They are a blight upon this planet.

Lynn0527 wrote:

4X4Dodger wrote:

Lynn0527 wrote:

I think this is just a rationalization for being a cheapskate. Tourism is an industry and unfortunately an industry that doesn't historically pay well. People make their money from us visiting their shops, buying their handicrafts. Inflation? Inflation on nothing is nothing. What are you worried you might have to pay 10 cents more for your taco. Come on, open up your wallet and help out those that aren't as fortunate as us. My nephew is 19 years old and makes over $17.00 an hour just because is was born in Canada. Mexicans have a history of corrupt governments, very little in terms of a social safety net and if not educated little chance to make the same kind of money my uneducated 19 year old nephew can make. Sorry, I don't mean to be rude but your arguments for not helping others who have less is truly disconcerting.

I will let your rudeness pass because I am sure that if you had spent the years I have living and working in countries like Bolivia, Sierra Leone, Cambodia and Egypt you would see this problem through different eyes as I do. I come to this argument with Real World experience. It is not a rationalization. Overspending and throwing around lots of money over and above the local costs of things brings on inflation. That inflation hurts the locals the most.

As for the tourism industry being a low paying job: That is true in many Western Industrialized countries. However it is the opposite in most developing or "3rd World" countries. The Tourism industry jobs are most times better paying with greater benefits than their local "mom and pop" store counterparts. ie. the person working in a foreign owned international hotel (lets say in Bolivia or Mexico) will generally earn MORE than their cousin doing the same job in a local business catering mostly to the non-tourist, non-expat community.

In addition many of these Tourist oriented/foreign owned/local-foreign partnerships help pay for English lessons, College level courses and give, in some cases, quite generous bonuses.

In countries I mentioned above a job in the tourist sector of the economy is a sought after and very desirable opportunity. It represents direct access to US dollars, Many times a higher wage and the ability to learn English which in most countries I mention is the SINGLE most important factor in getting a better job in ANY sector of the economy.

I understand your feelings But they don't change the facts as they truly exist for the locals.

The best way to help people is with good jobs, education and justice...not a handout.

When I worked in Egypt (2 years) (in the tourism industry by the way) A jewelry seller I knew who had a shop and a quite nice one at that often approached people on the street to sell things at opportune moments (like a ship coming in) He asked me over tea one night "Why do all your people think me Poor? They insult me with always wanting to give me more than we agree upon. You westerners are sometimes very arrogant in your ideas about us" And why do they get so angry when they bargain? This is our way...."
His daughters went to school in London and the US.

In this same conversation he went on to complain about the French because they were truly cheapskates and didnt want to pay what they had agreed to...

Just a view from the other side of the fence.

Just as an aside, you don't know my travel history or work history so you are assuming quite a lot. Sorry but I thought we were discussing Mexican's and the situation in Mexico and minimum wage, not Egyptians. I wasn't referring to the educated Mexicans who work in the tourist industry. Some of them are probably well paid (perhaps the ones that work at the front desk of chain hotels or high end restaurants) but I bet the ladies that make the beds and clean the rooms are not well paid and if a little tip of $5.00 helps them and makes them feel their work is appreciated, then I am of the mind to help them out and thank them.

The Egyptian you speak of must be one in a million because I am familiar with the Egyptian culture and most Egytians work very hard to put one over on you. Not to be derogatory but they view bargaining a good deal (maybe even what North Americans might consider cheating) as being savvy at business.

I just really feel that as a traveller we should leave a positive impression and be cognisant of the people around us. When I travel I always feel just a little bit guilty about what I have in comparison to others. For a lot of people one might meet from other countries, it is just a dream to them to be able to travel to another country. We are very fortunate people and I believe we should share that fortune with others. Upsetting the world economics is stretching it a little.

Guilt ridden people are at the core of many of the worlds problems. If you worked hard for your money and earned it why feel guilty? If you did not work hard and earn your money I can then understand your guilt and perhaps you should give it back.

EXCELLENT response! I wholeheartedly agree.

mayo30 wrote:

4X4Dodger wrote:

Lynn0527 wrote:
Just as an aside, you don't know my travel history or work history so you are assuming quite a lot. Sorry but I thought we were discussing Mexican's and the situation in Mexico and minimum wage, not Egyptians. I wasn't referring to the educated Mexicans who work in the tourist industry. Some of them are probably well paid (perhaps the ones that work at the front desk of chain hotels or high end restaurants) but I bet the ladies that make the beds and clean the rooms are not well paid and if a little tip of $5.00 helps them and makes them feel their work is appreciated, then I am of the mind to help them out and thank them.

The Egyptian you speak of must be one in a million because I am familiar with the Egyptian culture and most Egytians work very hard to put one over on you. Not to be derogatory but they view bargaining a good deal (maybe even what North Americans might consider cheating) as being savvy at business.

I just really feel that as a traveller we should leave a positive impression and be cognisant of the people around us. When I travel I always feel just a little bit guilty about what I have in comparison to others. For a lot of people one might meet from other countries, it is just a dream to them to be able to travel to another country. We are very fortunate people and I believe we should share that fortune with others. Upsetting the world economics is stretching it a little.

AHH! we get to the root of the matter...As you say GUILT. Yes I agree that is what drives most of this "generosity". I find that many North Americans feel as you do. And then act on those FEELINGS rather than a more rational approach based on facts, economics and experience.

You are also right that I dont know your travel experience...but if you read me carefully you will see I make no assumptions about you. I only talk about my experience.

As for Egypt...it's sad that you feel so cynically about such a fine people. But you are not alone in this. MANY tourists come away feeling the same. If you had lived and worked there for two years, spoke Arabic (i read and write a little too) I think you would feel differently. I for one found the Egyptians to be incredibly generous, hospitable, great negotiators, and wonderful friends. Do they have their share of scammers...OH for sure! And they have perfected their art over about a thousand years of catering to visitors and tourists.

To some of the other posters who believe I am a cheapskate:

You might find it interesting to know that I gave two years of my life to the Peace Corps and the people of Sierra Leone.(1976-77) I have started and run successful businesses in China and SE Asia. I paid above average wages. Paid for my employees healthcare out of my own pocket. Paid for the births of their children. Sent many of my employees to English school (and their children too) And when I sold my last business there I took some of that income and bought every long term employee a brand new Honda Blade motor scooter. Maybe you are right. Maybe I just should have tipped more. But then again I have no reason to feel guilty.

Sorry to have to bring this up,but this is not about you.No doubt you are an exemplary person,I for one will always tip what I feel is earned,what the receiver does with the tip is up to them.
Call it guilt or what ever you want.I am pretty sure I have made a few people a little happier over the years in Mexico and if I ruined the economy for the whole country,I am sorry.

Well you are right it is not about me and if you had read the other posts I think you would realize I was responding to those that were accusing me of being a heartless cheapskate.

About the idea that your actions do create inflation. Again if ;you read what I wrote I pointed out that it was usually on a MICRO level regional or sometimes confined to one city or even neighborhood. And it does adversely affect the locals. Just Google INFLATION AND TOURISM IN DEVELOPING COUNTRIES and hundreds of scholarly articles are available which support exactly what I am saying...I am not alone in understanding this phenomenon.

It would be really helpful if posters would actually READ what was written before criticizing what they THINK was being said. I have never advocated NOT tipping. What was originally said was that Tipping and the amount you tip has nothing to do with the minimum Wage. That tipping is about service received and the size of the Bill. Please go back and read my previous posts (All of them) on this subject)

Again if you had read my post carefully it was not me that called it Guilt it was someone else. I used it only in my response to them. But I do beleive it drives a lot of misguided actions.

FINALLY; This is What I Believe About Tipping:

Tipping should ONLY be done where it is Culturally Acceptable to do so

It should be done in Amounts similar to local Custom

It should be left as the locals do whether that is handed directly to the server or left on the table

It doesn't matter how much we tip in our home countries..your not in your home country.

Fully realize that your tip may be taken by the owner of the establishment in MANY cases and May or May Not be used for the benefit of the employees.

Now I hope all of those that called me names over this issue (an amazing thing in itself that some cannot remain civil) can relax and know that I too Tip (by the above rules).

This has gone sideways from a simple comment. Lets return to discussing Mexico.

4X4Dodger wrote:

Lynn0527 wrote:
Just as an aside, you don't know my travel history or work history so you are assuming quite a lot. Sorry but I thought we were discussing Mexican's and the situation in Mexico and minimum wage, not Egyptians. I wasn't referring to the educated Mexicans who work in the tourist industry. Some of them are probably well paid (perhaps the ones that work at the front desk of chain hotels or high end restaurants) but I bet the ladies that make the beds and clean the rooms are not well paid and if a little tip of $5.00 helps them and makes them feel their work is appreciated, then I am of the mind to help them out and thank them.

The Egyptian you speak of must be one in a million because I am familiar with the Egyptian culture and most Egytians work very hard to put one over on you. Not to be derogatory but they view bargaining a good deal (maybe even what North Americans might consider cheating) as being savvy at business.

I just really feel that as a traveller we should leave a positive impression and be cognisant of the people around us. When I travel I always feel just a little bit guilty about what I have in comparison to others. For a lot of people one might meet from other countries, it is just a dream to them to be able to travel to another country. We are very fortunate people and I believe we should share that fortune with others. Upsetting the world economics is stretching it a little.

AHH! we get to the root of the matter...As you say GUILT. Yes I agree that is what drives most of this "generosity". I find that many North Americans feel as you do. And then act on those FEELINGS rather than a more rational approach based on facts, economics and experience.

You are also right that I dont know your travel experience...but if you read me carefully you will see I make no assumptions about you. I only talk about my experience.

As for Egypt...it's sad that you feel so cynically about such a fine people. But you are not alone in this. MANY tourists come away feeling the same. If you had lived and worked there for two years, spoke Arabic (i read and write a little too) I think you would feel differently. I for one found the Egyptians to be incredibly generous, hospitable, great negotiators, and wonderful friends. Do they have their share of scammers...OH for sure! And they have perfected their art over about a thousand years of catering to visitors and tourists.

To some of the other posters who believe I am a cheapskate:

You might find it interesting to know that I gave two years of my life to the Peace Corps and the people of Sierra Leone.(1976-77) I have started and run successful businesses in China and SE Asia. I paid above average wages. Paid for my employees healthcare out of my own pocket. Paid for the births of their children. Sent many of my employees to English school (and their children too) And when I sold my last business there I took some of that income and bought every long term employee a brand new Honda Blade motor scooter. Maybe you are right. Maybe I just should have tipped more. But then again I have no reason to feel guilty.

Sorry to have to bring this up,but this is not about you.No doubt you are an exemplary person,I for one will always tip what I feel is earned,what the receiver does with the tip is up to them.
Call it guilt or what ever you want.I am pretty sure I have made a few people a little happier over the years in Mexico and if I ruined the economy for the whole country,I am sorry.

Lynn0527 wrote:
Just as an aside, you don't know my travel history or work history so you are assuming quite a lot. Sorry but I thought we were discussing Mexican's and the situation in Mexico and minimum wage, not Egyptians. I wasn't referring to the educated Mexicans who work in the tourist industry. Some of them are probably well paid (perhaps the ones that work at the front desk of chain hotels or high end restaurants) but I bet the ladies that make the beds and clean the rooms are not well paid and if a little tip of $5.00 helps them and makes them feel their work is appreciated, then I am of the mind to help them out and thank them.

The Egyptian you speak of must be one in a million because I am familiar with the Egyptian culture and most Egytians work very hard to put one over on you. Not to be derogatory but they view bargaining a good deal (maybe even what North Americans might consider cheating) as being savvy at business.

I just really feel that as a traveller we should leave a positive impression and be cognisant of the people around us. When I travel I always feel just a little bit guilty about what I have in comparison to others. For a lot of people one might meet from other countries, it is just a dream to them to be able to travel to another country. We are very fortunate people and I believe we should share that fortune with others. Upsetting the world economics is stretching it a little.

AHH! we get to the root of the matter...As you say GUILT. Yes I agree that is what drives most of this "generosity". I find that many North Americans feel as you do. And then act on those FEELINGS rather than a more rational approach based on facts, economics and experience.

You are also right that I dont know your travel experience...but if you read me carefully you will see I make no assumptions about you. I only talk about my experience.

As for Egypt...it's sad that you feel so cynically about such a fine people. But you are not alone in this. MANY tourists come away feeling the same. If you had lived and worked there for two years, spoke Arabic (i read and write a little too) I think you would feel differently. I for one found the Egyptians to be incredibly generous, hospitable, great negotiators, and wonderful friends. Do they have their share of scammers...OH for sure! And they have perfected their art over about a thousand years of catering to visitors and tourists.

To some of the other posters who believe I am a cheapskate:

You might find it interesting to know that I gave two years of my life to the Peace Corps and the people of Sierra Leone.(1976-77) I have started and run successful businesses in China and SE Asia. I paid above average wages. Paid for my employees healthcare out of my own pocket. Paid for the births of their children. Sent many of my employees to English school (and their children too) And when I sold my last business there I took some of that income and bought every long term employee a brand new Honda Blade motor scooter. Maybe you are right. Maybe I just should have tipped more. But then again I have no reason to feel guilty.

Mexico is Mexico. It is not the US or Canada or Australia or Egypt or any of the many other countries mentioned. Many servers in Mexico work for tips and only tips. And we do tip based on the level of service we receive - which in Mexico - at least places we go - has be excellent so we tip accordingly.

A story - - My Aunt lived in San Miguel de Allende for many years starting in the mid 50s. I first went there in 1971. My Aunt had a maid who came in every day and worked for 8 hours - 6 days a week. The wage at that time was $5 per week. I was shocked. I asked my Aunt why she did not pay more. She told me that this is what the Mexicans pay their help and if people from the US come to Mexico and pay more money then the people will want to only work for US wages and the Mexicans will not be able to hire help. The maid had 5 kids and her husband had gone to the US to find work. She was on her own with 5 kids. Each day my Aunt would give her money to go shopping for whatever my Aunt put on her shopping list. My aunt knew the maid would go find good deals on the items and negotiate the best price. She also knew the maid would keep a little of the savings for herself. Since my Aunt knew this she figured it was sort of a little tip. I still did not think this system was the best and too this day I wonder how that maid survived on that amount of money. But as my Aunt explained - this is the system in Mexico. Today we go to San Miguel and see all the rich people from the US building mansions on the hills and throwing money around. The population of San Miguel has grown as more Mexicans move there to try to find the good paying jobs. San Miguel has changed a lot over the years - as have many other parts of Mexico.

With all that said we still tip according to the service we receive. We also do understand what things cost in Mexico and how to find the bargains - as the locals do. If our tipping brings up their standard of living a bit then maybe it is a good thing. The Mexican economy is growing as more industry of all kinds locates there and better paying jobs can be found. As more Mexicans enter the middle class they can spend more money. Some of their money is spent on goods produced in the US - as well as other parts of the world. Workers are consumers and if consumers have more money they buy more stuff which is good for all economies. Spreading a little money around can help everyone in all economies.

tony lee wrote:
I'm with 4X4 on this topic. During the second world war the Australian soldiers used to complain about the Americans being "over-sexed, over-paid, and over-here" and nothing much has changed except the rot has spread even further. Tipping might have become a part of the US scene, but that is because the American workers have been and still are being exploited by their bosses paying minimum wages that nobody can live on - so the remedy for that was for the customer to be forced to make up the difference.

Most of the rest of the world doesn't run on that system and as has been stated, those who flash the multi-dollar bills around as tips that aren't expected in third-world countries are just screwing up the local system.

Interesting but in my experience traveling, very few cultures don't understand tipping. Maybe Australia and other countries where wait staff are unionized and wages are high.
I can give you an example, traveling with some else who was bargaining to save their life for an amount that would probably equal less than $1.00 Canadian. To put that much effort into screwing a local out of a buck was and is disgraceful in my eyes.

Obviously, we are of two minds on this topic. I will continue on my way and if I upset the dynamics of the world economy, you have my sincerest apologies. :)