Forum Discussion
pnichols wrote:
This will become more evident going forward as the bulk of the world's population continues to move into higher and higher density living situations.
I agree with you on this part but they are working on small reactors, similar to the ones on our nuclear-powered ships, that would serve to take care of this problem. We just have to get over this fear of nuclear power. Solar and wind power are nuclear power(ed). ;)LenSatic wrote:
Also, our grid-tied neighbors are now being assessed fees by the power company because the company refuses to earn less money.
Pat,
It's so many early adopter folks having individual solar systems that's causing power companies to have a smaller customer base to earn income from - while those ex-customers having local solar probably still have a portion of the grid system close to their residences that may be needed yet for years to service other nearby customers not on their own local systems.
I'm not convinced that local residential solar/wind systems can compete against the economies of scale that will naturally come from the huge solar/wind farms, from the huge (eventually) energy storage systems, and from the huge inverter systems for the solar power component from the farms (wind based energy from the huge farms may not require DC to AC inversion).
I'll bet that solar panels, battery banks, and inverters at - or close to - every living area will not, in the long run, even be possible ... let alone be the most efficient and Earth-friendly way to provide non-fossil power to billons of people world-wide. This will become more evident going forward as the bulk of the world's population continues to move into higher and higher density living situations.pnichols wrote:
I'm not a fan of individual solar setups at personal residences. I'd rather see the grid still supplying the bulk of personal residence power - including EV charging - but with grid power becoming cheaper and cheaper as large solar and wind farms feeding the grid come on line more and more across the U.S.
I have to disagree with you there. I am one and it is the only way that, currently, makes sense. (Was that a pun?)
We generate and store our own energy, there is no storage on the grid, they can only generate and only when the sun is up or the wind is blowing. Also, the grid demands a bureaucracy which demands: taxes, fees, regulations, transmission lines, and extensive maintenance. Transmission loss means that you actually have to make much more energy than needed, adding to the cost. Also, you are dependent on that grid. It goes down, no power for anybody. Every Monsoon season we watch Sierra Vista go dark while we enjoy air conditioning, TV, ceiling fans, microwave ovens, and all things electrical. And if ours should go down for some reason, the backup gennie kicks in.
Also, our grid-tied neighbors are now being assessed fees by the power company because the company refuses to earn less money. We don't have that problem. Cut the Cord! ;)
PatJohn & Angela wrote:
Right now it wouldn't be worth it for us to install roof solar as grid power is cheap.
:h I'm curious ... where is both grid power cheap and the air clean if there isn't a bunch of falling water or nuclear fission around?
For example, here in CA grid power is not cheap and the air is getting clean, but without much help from nuclear fission or falling water. I expect that solar and wind has something to do with our clean air. However, so far solar and wind ARE NOT bringing down the cost of grid power.
Right here in the Southwest - in probably the largest solar and wind farm area of the U.S. - the cost to charge EVs has nowhere to go but up unless EV owners throw up enough solar real estate on their roofs. What are the financing costs for decent sized roof solar panel systems, anyway? Are payback break-even points still several years out?
I'm not a fan of individual solar setups at personal residences. I'd rather see the grid still supplying the bulk of personal residence power - including EV charging - but with grid power becoming cheaper and cheaper as large solar and wind farms feeding the grid come on line more and more across the U.S.. IMHO, that's the most efficient way for non-fossil power to benefit the masses and Planet Earth -> use the huge grid system that is already in place but feed it with solar and wind generated energy. (My thouughts on solar and wind sourcing of power are assuming that nuclear fusion power is still a long way off, or impossible.)Searching_Ut wrote:
For more info on these particular chargers:
Salt Lake Tribune Article
At the newer Marverik stations you can buy "Real Gas", alcohol free for your generator etc., and firewood for when you get to your campsite. Now they are also adding electric charging stations in areas. The electric charging stations will require folks to pay, and while there were grants provided to put the charging stations in place my understanding is that they won't be subsidized beyond that so it will be interesting to see how the costs work out.
As for the practicality of using electric vehicles in Utah at this time, like large portions of the US, they are probably only practical right now as commuter vehicles in our major metropolitan areas. We still don't even have cell phone coverage in over a third of the land area, let alone practical means of charging an electric vehicle. I routinely wander off into areas where it's over 50 miles of dirt road to the nearest pavement. Unfortunately, the remote areas are going away fast though.
Good morning. If you go to plugshare.com Utah doesn't look to bad as far as coverage goes. Its got a ways to go but most of the corridors seem to have reasonable coverage.
Here is a link. Easy to check out your area for coverage.
plugshare- For more info on these particular chargers:
Salt Lake Tribune Article
At the newer Marverik stations you can buy "Real Gas", alcohol free for your generator etc., and firewood for when you get to your campsite. Now they are also adding electric charging stations in areas. The electric charging stations will require folks to pay, and while there were grants provided to put the charging stations in place my understanding is that they won't be subsidized beyond that so it will be interesting to see how the costs work out.
As for the practicality of using electric vehicles in Utah at this time, like large portions of the US, they are probably only practical right now as commuter vehicles in our major metropolitan areas. We still don't even have cell phone coverage in over a third of the land area, let alone practical means of charging an electric vehicle. I routinely wander off into areas where it's over 50 miles of dirt road to the nearest pavement. Unfortunately, the remote areas are going away fast though. John & Angela wrote:
LenSatic wrote:
The other shoe hasn't dropped yet: Wait for the outcry over recycling the batteries. ;) I live off-grind solar so I have some idea of the down stream effects of "renewable" energy. Some of the first "horseless carriages" were electric, BTW.
LS
Curious. Why would there be outcry. Tesla and Nissan already have recycling facilities. Nissan pays a thousand bucks for the core. Not that anyone would ever not recycle a battery but a vehicle lithium ion battery doesn't have near the environmental impact as a single leaf acid 12 volt battery. Lead is nasty stuff.
That's what they do now, not 50 years from now. They want people to buy. Plus, they are being subsidized. That won't last.
As for lead-acid, the greenies don't know it but the lead is recycled into bullets. ;)
One has to wonder why 19th century lead-acid batteries and internal combustion engines are still in use. It's a head scratcher! ;)
LSpnichols wrote:
I wonder how long it will be before the Free Enterprize System prices electricity from EV recharging stations such that it costs about as much (or more, years into the future) per mile - based on some average and ever-changing pricing formula - to drive them as an equivalent size gasoline or diesel powered vehicle?
I can't imagine free or dirt cheap EV "refueling" lasting too long into the future. Cheap refueling electricity is probably viewed as a "loss leader product" right now to get us into the EV buying mood.
I don't know. I don't think a restaurant cares about getting you into an EV buying mode. They just care about giving you one more reason to eat at there restaurant. Even if it costs them a buck of free electricity to get you to pick their restaurant it's still cheaper than printing a two dollar off coupon. As far as DC fast charging goes, it isn't cheap or free now, I doubt it will be in the future. And as far as home charging goes, people can and do produce their own power from roof solar. If the utility gets too expensive people will make their own power at home. Right now it wouldn't be worth it for us to install roof solar as grid power is cheap. Jack the rates up too much and I would reconsider. Solar is getting cheaper. Nice to have choices. Hard to refine your own gas. :)LenSatic wrote:
The other shoe hasn't dropped yet: Wait for the outcry over recycling the batteries. ;) I live off-grind solar so I have some idea of the down stream effects of "renewable" energy. Some of the first "horseless carriages" were electric, BTW.
LS
Curious. Why would there be outcry. Tesla and Nissan already have recycling facilities. Nissan pays a thousand bucks for the core. Not that anyone would ever not recycle a battery but a vehicle lithium ion battery doesn't have near the environmental impact as a single leaf acid 12 volt battery. Lead is nasty stuff.- I wonder how long it will be before the Free Enterprize System prices electricity from EV recharging stations such that it costs about as much (or more, years into the future) per mile - based on some average and ever-changing pricing formula - to drive them as an equivalent size gasoline or diesel powered vehicle?
I can't imagine free or dirt cheap EV "refueling" lasting too long into the future. Cheap refueling electricity is probably viewed as a "loss leader product" right now to get us into the EV buying mood.
