Best 5er for gut and rehab? Most important factors?

SettingOutSoon wrote:
This is a great discussion, thanks all. With my lack of experience and knowledge, I'd be a little nuts to build my own from a cargo hauler. But that would be nice to graduate to. (My son has done incredible things with shipping containers in Alaska.) I can see that whether or not the position of a refrigerator matters a lot, tanks and kitchens must. And come to think of it, it is strange to see so many RVs with both kitchen and bath on same side. Perhaps tanks are on opposite side?

I am looking into custom builders. But I read the average New Horizons 5W is something like $170k -- too much for me.

As for rehabbing, I could use help understanding how RVs differ in their basic structural integrity. The RV Consumer Group pub doesn't get real specific about major systems. I get it that many manufacturers use low grade parts, much of which I'll tear out. But are most built on the same frames (Lippert?)? Do most use similar wall systems? How should I go about deciding which shell is good enough? There are floors plans I really like (as a starting point), but the models are pretty cheaply made and poorly-rated. But if the basic frame and shell are okay, maybe they're a good starting place? How would I know?

You're going to have to do your own research for the structural integrity of the different brands. Most are either aluminum framed or wood framed so if either is a non-starter, you can eliminate a good part of your search.

I gutted and rebuilt mine with a few specific criteria in mind--increasing the insulation value, replacing windows, and changing the heating appliance to better afford Midwest winter camping. I wanted to change the floorplan to better accommodate my use. I wanted some more technical features and wished to upgrade the plumbing and wiring. Repair of any frame damage and make sure that there wasn't any water intrusion.

When I was looking for likely candidates for my project, I soon realized that buying a TT in really good shape shouldn't be on my list, I wouldn't have the heart to rip apart something that was fully functional. That allowed me to concentrate on TT's that had a decent frame and running gear, were not so far gone there was little hope in a good result, and had size and layout I could work with.

There's going to be choices and compromises made, no matter what you end up with. I would suggest you look for something that has minor damage in some aspect so that the initial price is very low. That way, you can address the repairs while doing the rest of the remodeling. Make sure you thoroughly inspect the pin box area for any frame damage or twisting in that area. There are more than a few folks that have had problems in that area.

Good luck with your project!

With the right foundation frame, convenient place to do it, time & skill this sounds like an interesting project as long as you are thinking keeping it long term afterwards because you will never get anything back close to what you put into it.

Sorry, but it will still be viewed as the same year as originally built. A one off custom in good shape will not hold the same value as a production unit in good shape. No matter how good a job you do the factory job will be considered better. A shame because all too often factory work leaves an awful lot to be desired.

Generally speaking there's two main styles of construction.

First the older style known as "stick & bat" where the walls and ceiling as made of 2" x 2" studs with the interior paneling and exterior skin act together as a good part of the structural integrity.

Then there's the newer composite wall panel system developed for the trucking industry. Usually using the FRP (fiberglas reinforced panels) method of construction. This allows for very rigid, well-insulated, light-weight walls.

IMHO, you'd be far better off trying to find a floor plan that works for you then just make minor changes and upgrades as you wish.

This is a great discussion, thanks all. With my lack of experience and knowledge, I'd be a little nuts to build my own from a cargo hauler. But that would be nice to graduate to. (My son has done incredible things with shipping containers in Alaska.) I can see that whether or not the position of a refrigerator matters a lot, tanks and kitchens must. And come to think of it, it is strange to see so many RVs with both kitchen and bath on same side. Perhaps tanks are on opposite side?

I am looking into custom builders. But I read the average New Horizons 5W is something like $170k -- too much for me.

As for rehabbing, I could use help understanding how RVs differ in their basic structural integrity. The RV Consumer Group pub doesn't get real specific about major systems. I get it that many manufacturers use low grade parts, much of which I'll tear out. But are most built on the same frames (Lippert?)? Do most use similar wall systems? How should I go about deciding which shell is good enough? There are floors plans I really like (as a starting point), but the models are pretty cheaply made and poorly-rated. But if the basic frame and shell are okay, maybe they're a good starting place? How would I know?

Gdetrailer wrote:
Moving things about in a haphazard way can result in overloading one side or even ONE wheel. That is why there are ENGINEERS working with designers. So unless YOU have some sort of ENGINEERING DEGREE along with some designing sense haphazardly moving things CAN cause you problems. One must understand that there ARE valid reasons as to placement of items and it is not always cosmetic.

First off, unless its a single axle trailer, no, you can't overload one wheel, the equalizer between the axles, as its name suggests, spreads the weight over the 2 or 3 wheels on that side.

As for the floor plan, the OP clearly said;

SettingOutSoon wrote:
Gale, do you mean $10k is how much you'd want to pay for something to rehab? I'm thinking the investment is worth it to get a well-made structure with 3-4 slideouts.

Just how much do you think you can rearrange the floor plan of a 5'er with 3 or 4 slide outs?

Maybe a 10' x 10' bathroom in a slide out with 4 windows?

The sky is NOT falling.

Gdetrailer wrote:

JaxDad wrote:

Gdetrailer wrote:
a 5vr REQUIRES min of 20% pin weight, moving even the fridge a couple of feet back towards the rear WILL affect the pin weight negatively. This move would require SOMETHING else heavy to be placed FORWARD to balance the effect.

A comment like that is, while a valid statement to a point, ridiculous in its claimed importance.

The largest double door (12 cubic foot) Dometic RV fridge I could find weighs 238 pounds.

If we use as an example a 10,000 pound 5'er, pin weight should be about 2,000 pounds.

If the center of the axles to the pin is 20', and the fridge is moved say 5' forward the most it could change the pin weight by is likely about 50 pounds. That's about the sames 6 or 7 gallons of water.

I suspect that wouldn't be an issue.

Fridge was just one example of what can affect the balance of the trailer. Weight is static, but CENTER OF GRAVITY IS DYNAMIC. COG IS affected by moving tall and or heavy objects and in a 5vr which is already top heavy this can be even more of a challenge to keep in control. You can't see or feel COG but it IS there, engineers can figure out where the COG is from evaluating weights of items and placement. Ideally COG must be as close to the ground as possible.

Moving things about in a haphazard way can result in overloading one side or even ONE wheel. That is why there are ENGINEERS working with designers. So unless YOU have some sort of ENGINEERING DEGREE along with some designing sense haphazardly moving things CAN cause you problems. One must understand that there ARE valid reasons as to placement of items and it is not always cosmetic.

True this! A builder or designer/builder will have to plot out the total weights from side->side and from front->back. The choices to be made will not be that difficult but awareness of trailer physics has to be addressed. Otherwise, you may end up with a trailer that will not stop swaying, or in the extreme case, a trailer that is undriveable.

One thing I found is that it is hard to get side->side balance when installing the kitchen area on one side. The kitchen contains a lot of weight because of the things we put into it, countertops, cabinets, stoves, fridges, sinks, etc.. In my rig, the shower stall and fresh water tank are also on the kitchen side. FWIW, I ended up with a 300lb. difference side->side. I have since offset that with a battery box weighing 150 lbs. and plan to store most cookware and incidental storage items on that light side. I have put the trailer on the road with the total 300 imbalance and din't notice any detriment but keeping it close is the goal.

JaxDad wrote:

Gdetrailer wrote:
a 5vr REQUIRES min of 20% pin weight, moving even the fridge a couple of feet back towards the rear WILL affect the pin weight negatively. This move would require SOMETHING else heavy to be placed FORWARD to balance the effect.

A comment like that is, while a valid statement to a point, ridiculous in its claimed importance.

The largest double door (12 cubic foot) Dometic RV fridge I could find weighs 238 pounds.

If we use as an example a 10,000 pound 5'er, pin weight should be about 2,000 pounds.

If the center of the axles to the pin is 20', and the fridge is moved say 5' forward the most it could change the pin weight by is likely about 50 pounds. That's about the sames 6 or 7 gallons of water.

I suspect that wouldn't be an issue.

Fridge was just one example of what can affect the balance of the trailer. Weight is static, but CENTER OF GRAVITY IS DYNAMIC. COG IS affected by moving tall and or heavy objects and in a 5vr which is already top heavy this can be even more of a challenge to keep in control. You can't see or feel COG but it IS there, engineers can figure out where the COG is from evaluating weights of items and placement. Ideally COG must be as close to the ground as possible.

Moving things about in a haphazard way can result in overloading one side or even ONE wheel. That is why there are ENGINEERS working with designers. So unless YOU have some sort of ENGINEERING DEGREE along with some designing sense haphazardly moving things CAN cause you problems. One must understand that there ARE valid reasons as to placement of items and it is not always cosmetic.

SettingOutSoon writes “Gdetrailer: Any recommendations on custom builders, or a source that lists them? (Is that allowed here?)”

A little background on my own findings, After rebuilding our first used TT I decided DIY building a new custom built TT would be easier than rehabbing a used one.

Spent some time designing a floor plan we liked, we had several limits which we found no ready made TTs had.

One was we wanted to stay within a 26ft length (longer would limit our favorite camping spots) another was a separate master bedroom WITH queen size bed (hated the old camper “full” size bed and curtain arraignment).

We also wanted a couch, no dinette and one bunk. We managed to fit all that into a 26ft trailer footprint in our design The closest ready made TT which had all of our features we could find was in 32’ + TTs, just to long for what we needed.

I was working with a local custom trailer builder (this is one that custom builds flatbed and even horse trailers) to price out a trailer frame and have them title it for me. They gave me a price of $2K and I was ready to approve when I found a well used 26ft TT for $700.

Needless to say I ended up buying the used trailer which gave me windows doors, appliances, tanks along with a frame with title.

The custom builder I was working with also makes horse trailers with custom living quarters which really were nice!

I do not know of any real “lists” of builders, but they are out there.
Basically you just need to figure out how to word your Internet searches to get started but as a disclaimer I have not done any business with any of the links below so you mileage may vary.

Internet search using “custom RV builder”

CLICK HERE

A couple of “examples” from the above search..

Custom built RV (5vr 28’-54’) starting at $16K
RVSANDCARGOTRAILERS

SPACECRAFTMFG

SPACECRAFT PHOTOS (pictures of sold units)

HORIZONRV

DIY from scratch plans

GLEN-L

Search using “custom trailer builder”

SEARCH

A couple of “examples” from the above search..

MILLTRAILERS

CUSTOMTRAILERUSA

TRAILERFACTORY

TRAILERCOUNTRYINC

I will caution you about using off the lot “cargo” trailers as your starting point IN SPITE of some other “sage” advice, they ARE extremely HEAVY to start with. They HAVE to be made that way since their sole purpose is heavy cargo. The floors tend to be built from HEAVY 2x6 planks or in some cases ¾” plywood, walls tend to be UNinsulated and lined with ½” or even ¾” plywood. ALL of those materials would need to be removed in order to insulate and even wire the trailer.

Cargo trailers tend to have much heavier steel or aluminum frame, while this sounds like it would be better it adds a lot of unneeded weight. RVs construction relies on a lighter weight steel or aluminum frame and the box (framing) on top creates the additional structural strength needed (think of the walls and roof to be like a series of trusses bridging the load down to the frame).

Example of this is my 26ft TT weighs 4600 lbs empty has GVW of 7000 lbs.

Compared to my 18ft open deck flatbed10K GVW trailer which weighs 2500 lbs unloaded. Basically my open flatbed is nothing more than steel plus 2x6 wood decking, no walls, no roof, no appliances, no electrical, plumbing. It is shorter but yet weighs a little over half of my 26ft fully enclosed and FINISHED TT. If I remember correctly MANY of the enclosed cargo trailers at the 26ft length I looked at were around 3500 lbs empty. In fact I looked up a cargo trailer which is close to the size of my 26ft TT, Wells Cargo EW2424, WELLSCARGO SPECS Curb weight (empty) is 3275 lbs!

Cargo trailers also will make placing important items like tanks rather difficult at best since you will be limited by any structural frame crossmembers as to size and placement.

One should also note that despite what some folks think, cargo trailers DO leak like RVs after a while..

Another issue is some campgrounds may REFUSE you if your RV "looks" like a cargo trailer...

I would highly recommend you check with a local horse trailer builder/seller (often times they will build custom horse trailer with living quarters, it is possible that they could make the entire trailer all living quarters) they should be able to either build a trailer to YOUR specs or recommend a builder that will be able to make one for you the way you want it.

I wish you luck with your “project”, if you decide to go ahead, take pictures and post them!

While rehabing a RV is not common that are good reasons to do so.

I was talking last night to a friend who lost a foot and he is looking for an older short diesel MH running or not running. He will gut it to some degree so he can build a shower with a seat in it.

If anyone knows of one PM me. There are special needs and wants out there that are not met by production models.

Gdetrailer wrote:
a 5vr REQUIRES min of 20% pin weight, moving even the fridge a couple of feet back towards the rear WILL affect the pin weight negatively. This move would require SOMETHING else heavy to be placed FORWARD to balance the effect.

A comment like that is, while a valid statement to a point, ridiculous in its claimed importance.

The largest double door (12 cubic foot) Dometic RV fridge I could find weighs 238 pounds.

If we use as an example a 10,000 pound 5'er, pin weight should be about 2,000 pounds.

If the center of the axles to the pin is 20', and the fridge is moved say 5' forward the most it could change the pin weight by is likely about 50 pounds. That's about the sames 6 or 7 gallons of water.

I suspect that wouldn't be an issue.