3/4 v 1 ton 4x4 Keystone Montana

the Montana high country is a different category than the Montana line. We have the 2013 3402 Big Sky and like topjimmy above we are at our limit....Pin weight, pin weight, pin weight.

Old-Biscuit wrote:
Generalized answer to generalized question

Doesn't weigh more than 12,000# GVWR then 3/4 OK

Heavier than that..........might as well go full 1 ton

More than 14,000# GVWR.....might as well go full 1 ton dually

That way you aren't running at limits or over.

Thanks. This is the kind of ballpark advice I was looking for. Some of the FW's I am considering are a tad under your limit, but 1 ton sounds like the way to go.

I hate to generalize, I am not the "weight police" but most of the Montana's I have seen have been dry weight around the 11k lb range. Loaded these things can get to be 13-14 plus k. Let's just explore what the pin weight would be on a 12000 lb Montana. That @20% would be 2400 lbs. A 14500 lb fiver @ 20% is 2900lbs of pin weight.

There are some SWR trucks that can handle this weight but a lot of them can't. I strongly suggest a dually for this trailer.

Thanks!

Jeremiah

They still make 3/4 ton trucks? ;)

If you can find one you like, you're steps ahead with the 1-ton. Its the difference between a 6,000 lbs rear axles rating on a 3/4 or a 7,000 lbs rating on a 1-ton. There were only about 1 or 2 Montana's that were within the numbers for a 3/4 ton. Our 3400RL Montana would creep up to a 3,000 lb pin weight in a hurry, and put us close to the cargo capacity of 3700 lb on our 1-ton SRW by the time we added us and fuel and any cargo in the truck. Without being overly cautious, it was the perfect TV-5er combo as far as the numbers went.

I believe that there is more to this than, pin weight, trailer weight, weight rating, etc. Any one does well to keep within Manufacturers Specs but we believe that there is more.

I am a Rancher in Colorado. I own a number of ranch trucks, 3/4-ton and 1-ton, both duallys and single wheel, both 4WD and 2WD, that I and my employees drive when we pull trailers. We pull stock, horse, flatbed, trailers of various sizes, some to weights well over 20,000 lbs. I also drive with a Monty 5th wheel RV that weighs over 12,000 lbs. I always pull the Monty with one of Dodge D3500, 1-ton Dually, 2WD.

We know that when pulling any trailer, the weather, especially wind will have an effect. Driving high configured trailers are less affected by wind with a 1-ton dually compared to a 3/4-ton or a 1-ton single wheel truck.

We also know that a 1-ton dually with proper tires designed for road and weather conditions, has better (more) traction than single tire trucks when pulling a load. This is important on both up and down hill driving here in the Mountains.

I believe it includes a safety factor and is more comfortable for the driver.

Atom Ant wrote:
If you can find one you like, you're steps ahead with the 1-ton. Its the difference between a 6,000 lbs rear axles rating on a 3/4 or a 7,000 lbs rating on a 1-ton. T

Rating is the key word.. and it's a rating that is not always based on ability.

If are shopping for a truck I agree completely, but if you own a truck then it's not that much different.

I am a Dodge guy so I this may not be 100%, but I do believe that GM uses the same axle on all 8.1L/Diesels 3/4, 1 Ton, DRW the AAM 11.5 and the 14 bolt on the 3/4 6.0 truck. This is the same axle that Dodge uses on all Diesels 3/4 or 1 Ton SRW/DRW, an axle that AAM rates at 10,900lbs SRW or DRW. That's higher than either GM or Dodge give for a RAWR, so the axle is strong enough.

The 2500 Hemi axle has a 9,000lb rating and the 2500 6.0L has a 8,600lb rating if you own a 3/4 gas rig. No clue on what Ford uses for 3/4 gas.

Ford does use a different DRW axle (D80) than SRW (Sterling 10.5"). The D80 is 11,000 and the Sterling is 9,750.. all above RAWR of SRW or DRW.


Okay, so those are the axle numbers and the lower RAWR limits are in part due to badgeing (3/4 vs 1), tires, suspension, etc...

That's where it get's trikcy and more vehicle specific, so here is what I know about Dodge.

Same frame 2500 Hemi or 3500 DRW CTD (assuming same cab/bed config) from 03-12. 13 had different frames but 14 is back to the same frame.

Front axle and suspension is the same 2500 to DRW, brakes are the same. The only difference from 03-12 was the rear suspension. In 03-09 if the truck was SRW it had the same main leaf spring pack for the rear. The 3500 SRW got the overloads that don't contact until you are at 95-98% of tire limit, pretty useless (and my guess as to why they where dropped in '10). 10-12 3/4 and 1 Ton SRW's had different main leaf packs, the SRW 1 Ton got the DRW main pack without the overloads. The DRW main pack is only rated at 7% more weight than the SRW main pack, minimal.

I have friends that know those same specs for Ford and GM, IIRC the biggest difference on a Ford 250 to SRW 350 was the rear spring and block, the important stuff like frame and brakes where the same. I say important because airbags are easier to install than brakes/frame.. and are useful on most loads anyhow. .

So back to what I said about shopping vs own, if you are shopping go for what you need but if you own then realize what is the same and see where you need to go.

In either case (unless you have one of the newer trucks with 18's) you are probably going to run out of tire capacity first.

GVWR is a paper rating for the most part. My truck has a 9,900 lb rating, several years later it upped to 10,100 with no hardware changes and the same frame gets a 12,200 rating with a DRW.

On a SRW RAWR is based on tires, and at least on Dodge the 2500 is lower than the 3500 because it's a 2500 and there "needs" to be a difference in a 2500 and 3500.. just like a 2500 has a 900lb lower GVWR than a 3500 SRW with everything identical but the overload pack (the one that isn't used within tire limits).

Just be educated, don't assume a SRW3500 is safer than a 2500 because in most cases they use the exact same setup and the biggest difference is the piece of paper (that really has no legal bearing).

Don't exceed tire limits first and foremost. If your truck has 17's you got the short end of the stick, nearly all 16's and 18's in comparable sizes have a higher load carrying capacity.

If your going to ditch the 17's for a bigger wheel for load rating I suggest the 19.5" route.

Alright, rant off... just educate yourself and don't make blind decisions.

Atom Ant wrote:
They still make 3/4 ton trucks? ;)

If you can find one you like, you're steps ahead with the 1-ton. Its the difference between a 6,000 lbs rear axles rating on a 3/4 or a 7,000 lbs rating on a 1-ton. There were only about 1 or 2 Montana's that were within the numbers for a 3/4 ton. Our 3400RL Montana would creep up to a 3,000 lb pin weight in a hurry, and put us close to the cargo capacity of 3700 lb on our 1-ton SRW by the time we added us and fuel and any cargo in the truck. Without being overly cautious, it was the perfect TV-5er combo as far as the numbers went.

The 6000lb vs 7000lb axle rating difference does not exist on many 3/4 vs 1 ton SRW trucks on trucks from years past. That may be true on recent trucks but not on older trucks. I repeat on many trucks the difference is nothing more than a spacer and an extra leaf or two on the rear springs. The engine, the transmission, the differential, the rear axles rating and the tire ratings were all the same except for the spring difference. Changing to a dual rear wheel one ton is a whole new ballgame.

or, instead of educating yourself to be a forensic axle scientist, just buy the truck with the right pedigree and paperwork and let the engineers worry about how they got there :)

Atom Ant wrote:
or, instead of educating yourself to be a forensic axle scientist, just buy the truck with the right pedigree and paperwork and let the engineers worry about how they got there :)

I can't argue with that logic if you are shopping for a new truck.

What gets me on the forums at times is the advice to dump the 2500 you own and buy a 3500 SRW. You could do that and potentially lose many thousands of $$$, or you could do as suggested above and find out what the differences are so you can make your existing truck work and save serious $$$. Sometimes the differences between the 2500 and 3500 SRW are very minor, but there are times when there are substantial differences.

A little bit of study can sometimes save a lot of cash. In a world where everyone has resources to do whatever is suggested and desired, then a new truck is great. When resources are more limited, like in the real world for most people, then study and proper modifications are often the best way. JMHO.

Atom Ant wrote:
or, instead of educating yourself to be a forensic axle scientist, just buy the truck with the right pedigree and paperwork and let the engineers worry about how they got there :)

Then it will be DRW 90% of the time.. based on my trucks "pedigree" I need a DRW for my 8.5K lb TT, based on reality I don't. Any 5er with a GVW of 7500lbs with proper pin weight would also put me into DRW status. Tell me how realistic that is.

I have a 1 Ton SRW, my empty weight is 8500lbs with me in it, if it where a 3/4 ton I would have less than 500lbs of pedigree payload. I do have a bit of stuff in the tool box, but nothing crazy.

I would agree if the ratings where based on engineering, but they aren't.