ATV riders stand up BLM in Utah

garry owen wrote:

fj12ryder wrote:
Last time I looked game trails weren't 5 feet wide and rutted 2 feet deep where their wheels run.

you really need to take a trip up the buffalo fork from turpine meadows to the south yellowstone park boundary.

you could see the damage done by commercial pack trains. providing hunting and fishing trips.

all done by horses and mules. five feet is nothing and 2 feet deep means just move over and start another trail.

I was speaking of game trails, not commercial pack horse routes.

And this is from one of my earlier posts: "And don't get me started on horseback riders! Talk about something that tears up trails! We'd ride trails on our mountain bikes after the horses had been through and it was horrible the damage done."

garry owen wrote:

mec500 wrote:
The more land they close to motorized use the more overused the remaining land becomes. They continue to close challenging trails and never provide anything new for the tax and registration paying offroader. And people wonder why they are bitter and cut new trails or disobey signs. In CA the desert has become endless fencing and signage kepping riders out. only to see the new green energy bulldozers flatten mountains for windmills and solar farms when a year before I would have received a fine for destroying the land by simply riding a trail that had been there for decades. Thhing of it like a a hundred people sharing one restroom its going to get trashed quickly . The more open ohv area the less wear and tear very simple

i can remember as young lad going to the forest and seeing signs saying;" national forest, land of many uses". i can't remember when i last saw one.
not only do i agree with you, i think the blm and forest service has done a very poor job.

years ago it was the forest service's job to maintain the mountain trails, fire watch, and cruise timber. now both the f s and b l m want to manage, by setting in the office and closing a gates. good work if you can get it.

when i go to local blm and fs offices for information, i often talk to persons that have never seen the land i might have a question about.

we have plenty of wilderness to apply this form of management to..

when they close a trail to protect a sensitive area, theres no reason they couldn't provide parity, by opening other land for trail use.

there is plenty of land to work with in the west. the blm and fs need to quit bottle necking all the users in smaller and smaller areas. this is only going to continue to fire opposition to the managing bodies, and fuel arguments between different users.

BRAVO TO YOU BOTH! I keep harping on education but can only reach those that are organized or follow boards such as this, many do not. I'm not picking on ATV's or UTV's but unfortunately they are, by percentage, the less "educated" in land use issues. Anyone can jump on an ATV or drive a UTV but it takes some skill to ride a motorcycle and we see a greater percentage of motorcyclists are educated than the others. We really need to educate everyone on the damage they are doing to our sport by illegal access.

And please don't flame me, I like ATVs and UTVs just my personal preference is two wheels. I know most on this board that have more than two wheels in the dirt are responsible users.

mec500 wrote:
The more land they close to motorized use the more overused the remaining land becomes. They continue to close challenging trails and never provide anything new for the tax and registration paying offroader. And people wonder why they are bitter and cut new trails or disobey signs. In CA the desert has become endless fencing and signage kepping riders out. only to see the new green energy bulldozers flatten mountains for windmills and solar farms when a year before I would have received a fine for destroying the land by simply riding a trail that had been there for decades. Thhing of it like a a hundred people sharing one restroom its going to get trashed quickly . The more open ohv area the less wear and tear very simple

i can remember as young lad going to the forest and seeing signs saying;" national forest, land of many uses". i can't remember when i last saw one.
not only do i agree with you, i think the blm and forest service has done a very poor job.

years ago it was the forest service's job to maintain the mountain trails, fire watch, and cruise timber. now both the f s and b l m want to manage, by setting in the office and closing a gates. good work if you can get it.

when i go to local blm and fs offices for information, i often talk to persons that have never seen the land i might have a question about.

we have plenty of wilderness to apply this form of management to..

when they close a trail to protect a sensitive area, theres no reason they couldn't provide parity, by opening other land for trail use.

there is plenty of land to work with in the west. the blm and fs need to quit bottle necking all the users in smaller and smaller areas. this is only going to continue to fire opposition to the managing bodies, and fuel arguments between different users.

fj12ryder wrote:
Last time I looked game trails weren't 5 feet wide and rutted 2 feet deep where their wheels run.

you really need to take a trip up the buffalo fork from turpine meadows to the south yellowstone park boundary.

you could see the damage done by commercial pack trains. providing hunting and fishing trips.

all done by horses and mules. five feet is nothing and 2 feet deep means just move over and start another trail.

The more land they close to motorized use the more overused the remaining land becomes. They continue to close challenging trails and never provide anything new for the tax and registration paying offroader. And people wonder why they are bitter and cut new trails or disobey signs. In CA the desert has become endless fencing and signage kepping riders out. only to see the new green energy bulldozers flatten mountains for windmills and solar farms when a year before I would have received a fine for destroying the land by simply riding a trail that had been there for decades. Thhing of it like a a hundred people sharing one restroom its going to get trashed quickly . The more open ohv area the less wear and tear very simple

Its clear to me, its not just one type of user that can cause destruction of our lands.

Its also not clear to me what is actually land destruction.

Is a parking lot or shopping center developed on former pristine wooded land considered damage,..? Or is a fence or road that cuts off animal pathways they have used considered damage..?

As in Glamis, where we were accused of excessively killing vegetation, only to find after it rained, the exact trails that were most rutted torn up and traveled had the greatest amount of flowers and vegetation spring back up, regularly and repeatably.Strange, huh..?
A couple of days after it rained, I've seen beautiful flowers bloom all over thru the valleys between the dunes where we were suppose to be doing all the damage...

So what I'm saying is, its very subjective on what is destruction to some, might not be to others. If you turn over a rock, to some, you destroyed the environment. So it would seem, all different groups of land users have a different idea of what is acceptable. That is one of the problems...

jmo

Bakersfield wrote:

coolbreeze01 wrote:
Regardless of the activity, there are neanderthals that will ruin it. From hiking to riding, idiots partake.
The dumbing down is serious. Good luck to us all..........

And if you are caught in a motorized vehicle causing damage, there should be a law that upon criminal conviction in a court of law, the court sales your ride and donates it to an environmental repair fund. 90% of the nonsense would immediately stop.

I too am tied of the Neanderthals taking away my rights, freedoms, and opportunities. Enough is Enough.

Great idea in theory, impossible in practice. Who will be judge and jury as to what constitutes "causing damage" Some people will say cutting down a 500 year old tree is improving the landscape because it is removing an obstruction in their way. Others will shed tears over the crushing of a cockroach since it is man defiling nature. Say "goodbye" to your ATV if you get a jury of cockroach loving peers.

The debate here is centered around obvious personal view points...When the first poster to respond, Arch Stanton, gave you all the answer to the government/public debate over public land use...it's about the cost in dollars.

As for those who want to use and for those who want to preserve, that may never be resolved.

When I first went to Big Springs back in maybe 85, I looked at it with a riders eye. I spent a lot of time as a kid riding in the desert. I also raced motocross for quite a few years and still do on occasion. The area was pristine and didn't change much. I decided I didn't see aneed to ride there as it was all Forest Service roads. We hadn't been up there for 10-12 years and went back in 2010. The area still looked good but some road looked whooped out. I knew what that was. In 2012 I was shocked at the area right around Big Springs. The hills just outside the camp were torn up. The campground was filled with UTV's and a few bikes. I saw 2 bikes tear straight up the side of the hill right next Owens River Road. They were gone before I had a chance to say anything to them and I was ready. I have a garage full of bikes. I feel like I know where to go and how to behave when I want to ride. I didn't see myself relating to those guys at all. It's crystal clear to me why there are closures. What is it with some people?

There are partnerships with the land stewards and the users. Our DNR has a Forest Watch program to get more eyes on the recreational areas and get the word out to other users through education since volunteers have now enforcement authority.

However, it is ironic that my class of vehicle was legislated out of the areas I volunteered to help preserve due to new width limits of 50". The result has been been reduced access to public lands, over use of limited areas still available and illegal riding when no other options are available. BTW: We drive lower profile wide track small displacement vehicles...