Momentum 399TH

tinner12002 wrote:

Daddy Bear wrote:
Well for what its worth, we just purchased a new Momentum 328m and brought it home a week ago. We have been looking for almost a year. We looked at Fusion, Impact, Cyclone, Tesla and Seismic and always came back to the Momentum. I suppose time will tell, but for now we couldn't be happier with our new Grand Design product!

Wasn't saying by no means they didn't make a good product...just expressing my opinions on my factory tour and what I observed.
Enjoy your new RV!!

for me, I was down to the GD Momentum and the Jayco..just a flip of the coin, and Jayco dealer was MUCH closer.

What tinner and I were talking about was the manufacturing facilities, I've been in manufacturing for 41 years and know cleanliness is very high in priority, Safety being #1, then Quality..But when in a plant, one of the first things we look at is cleanliness..it speaks volumes about product being fabricated. If you've ever toured an auto manufacturers plant, you will see what I mean...some of these plants like BMW and Mercedes, you could eat off the floor...It's just something some notice more than others, and really does mean something about the end product.

Jim

Many years ago I wrote a series of articles on manufactured homes. I went through various facilities where they were made - the process is quite similar in many respects to RV construction.

I too saw things strewn on the floor, people running, jumping, crawling, whatever it took to get the job done as fast as possible, in both high-end and mid-range facilities. It didn't matter what the perceived quality of the home was, they all did it the same way with mostly the same materials.

I observed first hand folks going in and doing their job on the assembly line and damaging work that had been done 5 minutes before. They were in a hurry and "things happen". They were paid by the piece and wanted to get as many done as possible.

The product that left the assembly line was generally in rough shape, and that's being diplomatic. Some looked like disasters. It wasn't until the pieces were delivered to the site and assembled, and the "finish team" went through it that it looked like what it was supposed to (a process that could take several days). The finish team often had to replace things like cabinet doors, re-do drywall, tape, and texture, and things like that. I accompanied a couple of them, and their trucks had cabinet doors of all types the manufacturer used, replacement windows, replacement doors, drywall mud, every color of paint the manufacturer used, etc. They could almost re-build a home if they had to, and could get anything they needed from the factory within a day.

From what has been explained to me, the inspection facility that GD is building will be like the "finish team" that manufactured home companies used. They will go through everything and make sure it's right, replace any parts that are damaged, etc.

Given how the industry does things on the assembly line, it's about the only realistic way to improve what gets shipped out to the customer.

I also noted what you mentioned about changes. Sales people are one thing. Product Managers are another. In our case, one thing we wanted was 12VDC outlets by each TV. The original idea was to be able to run 12VDC televisions when in the field so that we can have APRS displays up without needing to run the generator. The idea later turned into using local inverters to run energy efficient 110VAC TV's connected to the 12VDC outlet.

The PM for the Momentum Line (Nate Goldenberg) was able to make that happen for us. He also arranged to have the bathroom fan replaced with the same remote-controlled model used in the kitchen, we just had to pay for the fan.

They can do things like that for you, you just have to reach the right person to make it happen.

Yeah, the old adage, "do it right the first time", has fallen by the wayside.."FAST" can cause major issues, poor quality and possibly accidents..I'm speaking from 41 years of experiences in manufacturing...Really no excuse, no matter the product...As much as the 5er's and TH's cost, I expect better, but if we don't push it and just make excuses for the manufacturer due to brand loyalty, then we've failed as consumers and really don't even have a right to complain

Where I've worked manufacturing mining equipment, solid fuel propellents, tires, ABS systems. brake calipers, ESC systems, by the time ANY of these products had been manufactured, they didn't have to be checked agin due to all the quality processes built into the manufacturing process...and EVERYTHING I've ever been involved with, had safety factors like you wouldn't believe, because if a system failed, life's could be lost...but I'm "Old School", and "Doing it right the first time" doesn't seem to apply in some fields of manufacturing.

A lot of these manufacturers will work with you and do some custom work if you interface with them in a curtious and intelligent way....so that's not just something only GD does...like you said, you got to know who to talk to, or better yet, HOW to approach and talk to them..


Jim

ramgunner wrote:
I also noted what you mentioned about changes. Sales people are one thing. Product Managers are another. In our case, one thing we wanted was 12VDC outlets by each TV. The original idea was to be able to run 12VDC televisions when in the field so that we can have APRS displays up without needing to run the generator. The idea later turned into using local inverters to run energy efficient 110VAC TV's connected to the 12VDC outlet.

The PM for the Momentum Line (Nate Goldenberg) was able to make that happen for us. He also arranged to have the bathroom fan replaced with the same remote-controlled model used in the kitchen, we just had to pay for the fan.

They can do things like that for you, you just have to reach the right person to make it happen.

One other thing that probably most manufacturers aren't doing is in the second bathroom...installing an exhaust fan. Should be an option for every bathroom.

NC Hauler wrote:
I expect better, but if we don't push it and just make excuses for the manufacturer due to brand loyalty, then we've failed as consumers and really don't even have a right to complain

Jim

I prefer to do things the right way the first time for the right reasons as well. However, in building RV's there are two factors that have to be considered.

#1 - It's how the work system for building these things is setup. It's how the workforce works, how the industry pays, and how everyone does it. It's been that way since the early 1990's at least - RV's and manufactured homes.

#2 - If you want to be competitive on price, doing it the right way the first time isn't practical given #1.

Is it right? No. It is, however, reality.

I had a long chat with one of the owners of Grand Design when we were looking. They would love to build a perfect RV on the assembly line. But given how things are done, and that is has to be price competitive, it's not possible.

They are taking the extra step of putting that "finish team" in that second inspection. That's more than anyone else is doing right now, and given the reality of the situation, it's as good as I think we can expect.

I'm not trying to be blindly brand loyal. If we were to be in the market today, we'd look at everything we can find from EVERY brand. But knowing that Grand Design is doing something no one else does to try to ship the best product they can, they'd be at the top of my list to start. If what I saw didn't reflect that expectation, I'd be open to others.

As for the vent fan in the second bathroom - they have a window that opens in there. Even in most residential construction that I've seen, you don't put in a vent fan if there is a window that opens. I've seen that across every brand of toy hauler too.

I've seen several of the 350M with MaxFan in the second bathroom.

We just bought a GD Momentum 348 and it is our 5th rv. Had it for 4 months now and am still impressed. Its not perfect, but I am still very happy.

MrHavasu wrote:
We just bought a GD Momentum 348 and it is our 5th rv. Had it for 4 months now and am still impressed. Its not perfect, but I am still very happy.

None of them are perfect....a lot of them could be much better..As I stated earlier we came close to purchasing a GD Momentum.. beautiful rig"s...I didn't see anything wrong..price and distance to the GD dealer sold finally sold me on the Jayco

ramgunner wrote:
Many years ago I wrote a series of articles on manufactured homes. I went through various facilities where they were made - the process is quite similar in many respects to RV construction.

I too saw things strewn on the floor, people running, jumping, crawling, whatever it took to get the job done as fast as possible, in both high-end and mid-range facilities. It didn't matter what the perceived quality of the home was, they all did it the same way with mostly the same materials.

I observed first hand folks going in and doing their job on the assembly line and damaging work that had been done 5 minutes before. They were in a hurry and "things happen". They were paid by the piece and wanted to get as many done as possible.

The product that left the assembly line was generally in rough shape, and that's being diplomatic. Some looked like disasters. It wasn't until the pieces were delivered to the site and assembled, and the "finish team" went through it that it looked like what it was supposed to (a process that could take several days). The finish team often had to replace things like cabinet doors, re-do drywall, tape, and texture, and things like that. I accompanied a couple of them, and their trucks had cabinet doors of all types the manufacturer used, replacement windows, replacement doors, drywall mud, every color of paint the manufacturer used, etc. They could almost re-build a home if they had to, and could get anything they needed from the factory within a day.

From what has been explained to me, the inspection facility that GD is building will be like the "finish team" that manufactured home companies used. They will go through everything and make sure it's right, replace any parts that are damaged, etc.

Given how the industry does things on the assembly line, it's about the only realistic way to improve what gets shipped out to the customer.

Interesting experience. I just find it hard to believe that by rushing the assembly line as much as you say they do, that it's actually cheaper, in the long run, to hire an additional finish team and all that?

Think about it, if your QC was on point during assembly, you wouldn't need an entirely different team to finish everything. Nor would you need a truck full of cabinet doors and such (more inventory and overhead) to keep on hand.