Momentum 399TH

NC Hauler wrote:
I expect better, but if we don't push it and just make excuses for the manufacturer due to brand loyalty, then we've failed as consumers and really don't even have a right to complain

Jim

I prefer to do things the right way the first time for the right reasons as well. However, in building RV's there are two factors that have to be considered.

#1 - It's how the work system for building these things is setup. It's how the workforce works, how the industry pays, and how everyone does it. It's been that way since the early 1990's at least - RV's and manufactured homes.

#2 - If you want to be competitive on price, doing it the right way the first time isn't practical given #1.

Is it right? No. It is, however, reality.

I had a long chat with one of the owners of Grand Design when we were looking. They would love to build a perfect RV on the assembly line. But given how things are done, and that is has to be price competitive, it's not possible.

They are taking the extra step of putting that "finish team" in that second inspection. That's more than anyone else is doing right now, and given the reality of the situation, it's as good as I think we can expect.

I'm not trying to be blindly brand loyal. If we were to be in the market today, we'd look at everything we can find from EVERY brand. But knowing that Grand Design is doing something no one else does to try to ship the best product they can, they'd be at the top of my list to start. If what I saw didn't reflect that expectation, I'd be open to others.

As for the vent fan in the second bathroom - they have a window that opens in there. Even in most residential construction that I've seen, you don't put in a vent fan if there is a window that opens. I've seen that across every brand of toy hauler too.

ramgunner wrote:
I also noted what you mentioned about changes. Sales people are one thing. Product Managers are another. In our case, one thing we wanted was 12VDC outlets by each TV. The original idea was to be able to run 12VDC televisions when in the field so that we can have APRS displays up without needing to run the generator. The idea later turned into using local inverters to run energy efficient 110VAC TV's connected to the 12VDC outlet.

The PM for the Momentum Line (Nate Goldenberg) was able to make that happen for us. He also arranged to have the bathroom fan replaced with the same remote-controlled model used in the kitchen, we just had to pay for the fan.

They can do things like that for you, you just have to reach the right person to make it happen.

One other thing that probably most manufacturers aren't doing is in the second bathroom...installing an exhaust fan. Should be an option for every bathroom.

Yeah, the old adage, "do it right the first time", has fallen by the wayside.."FAST" can cause major issues, poor quality and possibly accidents..I'm speaking from 41 years of experiences in manufacturing...Really no excuse, no matter the product...As much as the 5er's and TH's cost, I expect better, but if we don't push it and just make excuses for the manufacturer due to brand loyalty, then we've failed as consumers and really don't even have a right to complain

Where I've worked manufacturing mining equipment, solid fuel propellents, tires, ABS systems. brake calipers, ESC systems, by the time ANY of these products had been manufactured, they didn't have to be checked agin due to all the quality processes built into the manufacturing process...and EVERYTHING I've ever been involved with, had safety factors like you wouldn't believe, because if a system failed, life's could be lost...but I'm "Old School", and "Doing it right the first time" doesn't seem to apply in some fields of manufacturing.

A lot of these manufacturers will work with you and do some custom work if you interface with them in a curtious and intelligent way....so that's not just something only GD does...like you said, you got to know who to talk to, or better yet, HOW to approach and talk to them..


Jim

I also noted what you mentioned about changes. Sales people are one thing. Product Managers are another. In our case, one thing we wanted was 12VDC outlets by each TV. The original idea was to be able to run 12VDC televisions when in the field so that we can have APRS displays up without needing to run the generator. The idea later turned into using local inverters to run energy efficient 110VAC TV's connected to the 12VDC outlet.

The PM for the Momentum Line (Nate Goldenberg) was able to make that happen for us. He also arranged to have the bathroom fan replaced with the same remote-controlled model used in the kitchen, we just had to pay for the fan.

They can do things like that for you, you just have to reach the right person to make it happen.

Many years ago I wrote a series of articles on manufactured homes. I went through various facilities where they were made - the process is quite similar in many respects to RV construction.

I too saw things strewn on the floor, people running, jumping, crawling, whatever it took to get the job done as fast as possible, in both high-end and mid-range facilities. It didn't matter what the perceived quality of the home was, they all did it the same way with mostly the same materials.

I observed first hand folks going in and doing their job on the assembly line and damaging work that had been done 5 minutes before. They were in a hurry and "things happen". They were paid by the piece and wanted to get as many done as possible.

The product that left the assembly line was generally in rough shape, and that's being diplomatic. Some looked like disasters. It wasn't until the pieces were delivered to the site and assembled, and the "finish team" went through it that it looked like what it was supposed to (a process that could take several days). The finish team often had to replace things like cabinet doors, re-do drywall, tape, and texture, and things like that. I accompanied a couple of them, and their trucks had cabinet doors of all types the manufacturer used, replacement windows, replacement doors, drywall mud, every color of paint the manufacturer used, etc. They could almost re-build a home if they had to, and could get anything they needed from the factory within a day.

From what has been explained to me, the inspection facility that GD is building will be like the "finish team" that manufactured home companies used. They will go through everything and make sure it's right, replace any parts that are damaged, etc.

Given how the industry does things on the assembly line, it's about the only realistic way to improve what gets shipped out to the customer.

tinner12002 wrote:

Daddy Bear wrote:
Well for what its worth, we just purchased a new Momentum 328m and brought it home a week ago. We have been looking for almost a year. We looked at Fusion, Impact, Cyclone, Tesla and Seismic and always came back to the Momentum. I suppose time will tell, but for now we couldn't be happier with our new Grand Design product!

Wasn't saying by no means they didn't make a good product...just expressing my opinions on my factory tour and what I observed.
Enjoy your new RV!!

for me, I was down to the GD Momentum and the Jayco..just a flip of the coin, and Jayco dealer was MUCH closer.

What tinner and I were talking about was the manufacturing facilities, I've been in manufacturing for 41 years and know cleanliness is very high in priority, Safety being #1, then Quality..But when in a plant, one of the first things we look at is cleanliness..it speaks volumes about product being fabricated. If you've ever toured an auto manufacturers plant, you will see what I mean...some of these plants like BMW and Mercedes, you could eat off the floor...It's just something some notice more than others, and really does mean something about the end product.

Jim

Daddy Bear wrote:
Well for what its worth, we just purchased a new Momentum 328m and brought it home a week ago. We have been looking for almost a year. We looked at Fusion, Impact, Cyclone, Tesla and Seismic and always came back to the Momentum. I suppose time will tell, but for now we couldn't be happier with our new Grand Design product!

Wasn't saying by no means they didn't make a good product...just expressing my opinions on my factory tour and what I observed.
Enjoy your new RV!!

Well for what its worth, we just purchased a new Momentum 328m and brought it home a week ago. We have been looking for almost a year. We looked at Fusion, Impact, Cyclone, Tesla and Seismic and always came back to the Momentum. I suppose time will tell, but for now we couldn't be happier with our new Grand Design product!

I agree NC Hauler...there's no excuse for a messy/dangerous workplace where safety should be #1 priority to make sure everyone goes home safe to their families at night. With the workers installing parts and pieces as fast as they were, I find it hard to believe much care is taken to ensure that new camper will be 100% when its all put together...no pride there because its all about spitting the #s out the door as fast as possible so they can keep their quota up and keep their pay up and keep their jobs!

momentum rv wrote:
FYI GD just build a new facility to do nothing but PDI on all trailers before leaving the factory. Hopefully that will take care of the delivery issues.

From GD web site:
"Following construction, every Grand Design product goes through an initial quality inspection process. This is usually the final step other manufacturers take before shipping their units. We at Grand Design RV believe that this “industry standard” process falls far short of producing what we would regard as a quality unit. So, at this point in the manufacturing process, we send each unit to our dedicated PDI* Center where it is meticulously taken through a rigid point-by-point inspection process and final finished. Only then do we consider it “Grand Design great”. In terms of time, building space and manpower, this step is a costly one. But we believe it to be an absolutely essential step in delivering the finest quality products to our dealers and customers."

Sounds more like "yada-yada"..I've been in manufacturing for 41 years, and EACH PHASE of a manufacturing process should have a Quality check, then signed off, and go to the next phase, and on and on until final product and then given final Quality checks and final test...Should NEVER be any surprises at a PDI, with ANY of them...When there is, there has been a failure in the manufacturing process AND a failure in the QUALITY processes, BUT we're buying these rev's anyway, so I guess it doesn't matter..

If you walk into a manufacturing plant and the place is a mess...It tells me, from YEARS of 5S and Lean Training, that not much pride is taken in their work....Again, I'm not talking about just GD, it's most all of the rv manufacturers. We've come to accept a lot of bad work with almost all of them....It's really not acceptable, but we even make excuses for some of them...they have to love those of us that do not complain..

99% of the time cost of Quality control's, i.e. ALL these checks and test, ARE BUILT into the cost of the unit, AND, it should be done anyway...tells me they care about what they're selling to their customers.