In the market for used smaller RV
Comparing used RV's. Wife and I, want to keep smaller for drive-ability, storing at home, and economy. Probably 22-24 foot. Regular B's are just too small. Trying to compare B+ to smaller C's. I'...
Forum Discussion
I have a 2010 Phoenix 2350 on an E450 chasis I bought used with 16,000 miles on it at less than half the original cost, and I am basically satisfied with it, but have had quite a few repair issues I didnt expect, and also learned along the way that some unanticipated modifications would be necessary.
The following is a list of repairs I've had to make to keep the unit in working order, and modifications I've made to improve performance and comfort:
1. It was under powered in my opinion and I spent almost $2,000 on a Banks exhaust, K&N intake, and SCT download, improving performance as much as is practical without diminishing reliability - probably improved it actually. But all stock Class C's with the Ford V10 will be the same in this respect.
2. While the solid (for the most part but not as much as claimed) cabinets look nice, the drawer construction is terrible, the drawer guides are flimsy, and the door and drawer catches are cheap plastic and routinely fail. I dont have experience with other brands so this may be consistent at this price range, but all my drawers have failed and Ive eliminated two of them out of frustration with the design. Also while the doors and drawer fronts are solid wood, the face frames and cabinet sides are cheaper material with ultra thin laminate simulating solid cabinets, but in reality pretty cheap stuff. This was an expensive option so they should have followed through with all quality materials.
3. The battery tray should be a battery box and the drawer guides it slides on have already failed. Im I'm the process of redesigning it so the batteries are properly supported and not exposed to the stuff rear tire slings up. This is a safety issue as the batteries could drop out in front of the rear wheel if the problem goes undetected.
4. The low profile Dometic "Penguin" AC (with horizontal compressor) failed twice. I finally replaced it with a standard unit at my expense. The warranty is one year from the time of purchase of the original, not the time of purchase of the replacement, so even though this was the third AC unit in just over two years, I had to pay for it. I installed a conventional 15,000 btu Dometic unit and used the heat strip and control module from the last one that failed so I would still have wall thermostat control and electric heat.
5. I couldnt sleep on cheap factory mattress - I weigh 230 and it was like sleeping on the OSB below. I replaced it with a custom made mattress from Mattress Insider. Wonderful improvement!
6. The battery charger over charges the batteries; when it should be in float, it is still providing 5.8 amps and cycles every 15 minutes or so with no demand on the batteries. It may be a charger flaw or installation flaw, but it boils the batteries in just a couple of days if left plugged into shore power. This is on my short list as I am in the third set of batteries in four years and they should last five or six years. Also some outlest are powered by the inverter, and some aren't - wierd but not crucial.
7. The power step has wiring exposed to the elements and I've had to repair it several times - Im going to do a permanent fix by re-routing and improving the wiring harness.
8. This is important: the TV mount failed while driving. It looked like it was made by a group of kids with scrap wood and simple tools. The TV fell in my lap while traveling at 65 mph in six lanes of traffic. I improved it, and I dont like to ridicule, but honestly, this was just plain lame, and a real safety hazard.
9. There is no filter for the water inlet - this is an easy modification but should be standard for this price range.
10. The sheet metal microwave front mounting plate is cracked in three places and I will have to buy or build a replacement. It would be easy enough to spec the thing from metal a few guages heavier.
11. Molding and mounts for smaller items are constantly failing - I carry a variety of hardware and tools to repair things and I have to do this on every trip.
12. The E450 chasis sounded good in theory, and the 4:56 gears help with pulling power, but it is too stiff for the weight. Im going to install air bags to try to improve the ride, and I might even take a couple leafs out of the 13 spring stack - need a little more research there.
Many of these things may be common to most Class C units - I dont know, so Im not blasting really Phoenix (for the most part) and I am satisfied to the extent that I have a lot of fun with the unit, and I like working on things. Also a lot of what I think is "cheap" is probably light weight for economy and load capacity. But this thing had a price tag of around $120,000 new, and at that price, most of the above items, in addition to a few smaller ones I didn't list, should have been resolved by better design, workmanship, and materials.
So hopefully this will give you an idea of what to look for when examining potential units. I like the size and manuverability of a 24' rig, and post engine mods, the thing has really decent performance. It has lovely cabinet doors, nice counters, HWH leveling, nice leather seating, nice appliances, Onan 4kw gennerator and xantrex 2kw inverter, etc. When looking at prospective rigs in the future, I am going to look deeper and better scrutinize the things you cant see on a walk through.
Also if you are looking at 2010 - 2012 units with original Michelin tires, check the date code for re-calls. Mine seemed fine but were re-called and I got six new tires at 37000 miles free of charge. The recall was due to tread failure which can do a lot of damage.
The following is a list of repairs I've had to make to keep the unit in working order, and modifications I've made to improve performance and comfort:
1. It was under powered in my opinion and I spent almost $2,000 on a Banks exhaust, K&N intake, and SCT download, improving performance as much as is practical without diminishing reliability - probably improved it actually. But all stock Class C's with the Ford V10 will be the same in this respect.
2. While the solid (for the most part but not as much as claimed) cabinets look nice, the drawer construction is terrible, the drawer guides are flimsy, and the door and drawer catches are cheap plastic and routinely fail. I dont have experience with other brands so this may be consistent at this price range, but all my drawers have failed and Ive eliminated two of them out of frustration with the design. Also while the doors and drawer fronts are solid wood, the face frames and cabinet sides are cheaper material with ultra thin laminate simulating solid cabinets, but in reality pretty cheap stuff. This was an expensive option so they should have followed through with all quality materials.
3. The battery tray should be a battery box and the drawer guides it slides on have already failed. Im I'm the process of redesigning it so the batteries are properly supported and not exposed to the stuff rear tire slings up. This is a safety issue as the batteries could drop out in front of the rear wheel if the problem goes undetected.
4. The low profile Dometic "Penguin" AC (with horizontal compressor) failed twice. I finally replaced it with a standard unit at my expense. The warranty is one year from the time of purchase of the original, not the time of purchase of the replacement, so even though this was the third AC unit in just over two years, I had to pay for it. I installed a conventional 15,000 btu Dometic unit and used the heat strip and control module from the last one that failed so I would still have wall thermostat control and electric heat.
5. I couldnt sleep on cheap factory mattress - I weigh 230 and it was like sleeping on the OSB below. I replaced it with a custom made mattress from Mattress Insider. Wonderful improvement!
6. The battery charger over charges the batteries; when it should be in float, it is still providing 5.8 amps and cycles every 15 minutes or so with no demand on the batteries. It may be a charger flaw or installation flaw, but it boils the batteries in just a couple of days if left plugged into shore power. This is on my short list as I am in the third set of batteries in four years and they should last five or six years. Also some outlest are powered by the inverter, and some aren't - wierd but not crucial.
7. The power step has wiring exposed to the elements and I've had to repair it several times - Im going to do a permanent fix by re-routing and improving the wiring harness.
8. This is important: the TV mount failed while driving. It looked like it was made by a group of kids with scrap wood and simple tools. The TV fell in my lap while traveling at 65 mph in six lanes of traffic. I improved it, and I dont like to ridicule, but honestly, this was just plain lame, and a real safety hazard.
9. There is no filter for the water inlet - this is an easy modification but should be standard for this price range.
10. The sheet metal microwave front mounting plate is cracked in three places and I will have to buy or build a replacement. It would be easy enough to spec the thing from metal a few guages heavier.
11. Molding and mounts for smaller items are constantly failing - I carry a variety of hardware and tools to repair things and I have to do this on every trip.
12. The E450 chasis sounded good in theory, and the 4:56 gears help with pulling power, but it is too stiff for the weight. Im going to install air bags to try to improve the ride, and I might even take a couple leafs out of the 13 spring stack - need a little more research there.
Many of these things may be common to most Class C units - I dont know, so Im not blasting really Phoenix (for the most part) and I am satisfied to the extent that I have a lot of fun with the unit, and I like working on things. Also a lot of what I think is "cheap" is probably light weight for economy and load capacity. But this thing had a price tag of around $120,000 new, and at that price, most of the above items, in addition to a few smaller ones I didn't list, should have been resolved by better design, workmanship, and materials.
So hopefully this will give you an idea of what to look for when examining potential units. I like the size and manuverability of a 24' rig, and post engine mods, the thing has really decent performance. It has lovely cabinet doors, nice counters, HWH leveling, nice leather seating, nice appliances, Onan 4kw gennerator and xantrex 2kw inverter, etc. When looking at prospective rigs in the future, I am going to look deeper and better scrutinize the things you cant see on a walk through.
Also if you are looking at 2010 - 2012 units with original Michelin tires, check the date code for re-calls. Mine seemed fine but were re-called and I got six new tires at 37000 miles free of charge. The recall was due to tread failure which can do a lot of damage.
