Reducing "Tractor Trailer Push" E-350 Class C

Desert Captain wrote:

What I will never understand is why virtually no-one {apparently}, does a proper test drive. :h

Throwing around blanket criticisms of "virtually everybody" is not a very friendly thing to do.

Neither is taking something that you don't understand and trying to make it sound like everybody ELSE has a problem.....when it is YOU who doesn't understand.

While I suspect that you won't listen because you don't really care:
In my case, I tried to "stress" the unit all that I could on my test drive. Rough roads, hills and valleys, fast, slow, tight turns, etc.
I never imagined that there would be a "design defect" that would cause it to wander when going in a straight line. I expected better from an old established respected company like Winnebago.
THEY could fairly easily fix this problem but choose not to. THAT is what I don't understand.

Does that clear it up any for you ??

Desert Captain wrote:
"I haven't had anywhere near the handling problems that many owners in these forums mention. I attribute it too having the E450 chassis under a small Class C instead of the usual E350 chassis. We can drive it in high cross winds and I can steer it safely using only one hand on the wheel under most conditions."

My driving experiences match yours Phil. I think that is more because you and I both have quality 24' ish Class C's than the minimal differences between your 450 and my 350. When the manufacturers start putting the 450 on 30'+ C's the problems really start to stack up.

The overwhelming number of handling complaints come from owners of the larger model Class C, E-450 chassis'. The longer/larger the Class C, the more handling problems arise. Also the bigger units all lack anything approaching reasonable CCC/OCC/payload {caller it what you will}. Putting a 30+ to 34'+ Class C on the E-450 chassis is just asking for problems. Of course on a C that large they just have to have a Toad and loads and problems are just exacerbated.

I have had no, zip, nada, none whatsoever handling problems with my stock {other than the the heavy duty Bilstein's I added when the originals wore out}, E-350. My rig measures 24'6" nose to tail and sits upon a 159"" wheelbase.

What I will never understand is why virtually no-one {apparently}, does a proper test drive. [emoticon]

This Forum is constantly inundated with folks who bought a large Class C and are now crying the blues that it does not handle well. They bemoan the fact that now they have to spend the kids college fund adding aftermarket garbage to make it decent to drive. [emoticon]

Hey folks... I'll let you in on a little secret: If it drives like a pig on roller skates on the test drive it is not going to get one bit better down the road. You bought the wrong RV! No decent quality new Class C should need dime one of aftermarket gear/crapola added to make it drive and handle well.

Test drive a Phoenix cruiser, Born Free, Coachhouse and yes a Nexus {to name just a few of the better coaches out there}, and if they are properly loaded and inflated you too will have no issues.

I'm pretty much X2 on what D.C. says, above.

Looking at this brochure to see the specs for my 2005 24V model, one can see that Winnebago thinks my Class C's length is 24'7" - measured between something and something, and that the E450's wheelbase is 158" (see page 9 models' specs): http://www.winnebagoind.com/resources/brochure/2005/05-Spirit-bro.pdf

My rig does have a lot of weight BETWEEN the axles that is WELL FORWARD OF the rear axle as built, and when loaded for going down the road - these weights are aways ahead of the rear axle thereby nicely leveraging the gas tank, the spare tire and the FW/BW/GW tanks' shorter leveraged weight behind the rear axle - such as: heavier than normal roof due to rolled over edges all the way along each side, 18 gallon propane tank, Onan generator, two Group 31 12V batteries (72 lb. each), heavy tool box, portable genny gas can, fire pit propane tank, refrigerator, fully loaded cabinets, sometimes heavy collected rocks under the dinette seats' bench storage, ~230 lb. me, and the X lb. DW. We run tire pressures just like what is printed on the cab door .... 80 lbs. rear and 65 lbs. front. The air conditioner is about over the rear axle, so it's weight is nearly neutral on any axle loading differential. Probably having an un-occupied rear corner bed instead of a kitchen in the rear helps minimize traveling weight way at the rear, too. I also think that running full 80 lbs. in the rear - that is not really required for our small Class C - may be contributing to good lateral stiffness to minimize sway in curves, in cross winds, and with passing box trucks.

Other than the above - plus stock front/rear sway bars and a front steering shock - I have no idea why our Class C "drives almost like a van". :h

"I haven't had anywhere near the handling problems that many owners in these forums mention. I attribute it too having the E450 chassis under a small Class C instead of the usual E350 chassis. We can drive it in high cross winds and I can steer it safely using only one hand on the wheel under most conditions."

My driving experiences match yours Phil. I think that is more because you and I both have quality 24' ish Class C's than the minimal differences between your 450 and my 350. When the manufacturers start putting the 450 on 30'+ C's the problems really start to stack up.

The overwhelming number of handling complaints come from owners of the larger model Class C, E-450 chassis'. The longer/larger the Class C, the more handling problems arise. Also the bigger units all lack anything approaching reasonable CCC/OCC/payload {caller it what you will}. Putting a 30+ to 34'+ Class C on the E-450 chassis is just asking for problems. Of course on a C that large they just have to have a Toad and loads and problems are just exacerbated.

I have had no, zip, nada, none whatsoever handling problems with my stock {other than the the heavy duty Bilstein's I added when the originals wore out}, E-350. My rig measures 24'6" nose to tail and sits upon a 159"" wheelbase.

What I will never understand is why virtually no-one {apparently}, does a proper test drive. :h

This Forum is constantly inundated with folks who bought a large Class C and are now crying the blues that it does not handle well. They bemoan the fact that now they have to spend the kids college fund adding aftermarket garbage to make it decent to drive. :S

Hey folks... I'll let you in on a little secret: If it drives like a pig on roller skates on the test drive it is not going to get one bit better down the road. You bought the wrong RV! No decent quality new Class C should need dime one of aftermarket gear/crapola added to make it drive and handle well.

Test drive a Phoenix cruiser, Born Free, Coachhouse and yes a Nexus {to name just a few of the better coaches out there}, and if they are properly loaded and inflated you too will have no issues.

As always.... Opinions and YMMV

:C

drumz,

I did not read through the other replies so maybe my comments here are redundant.

In-general, E350s are shorter rigs with short wheel bases and long rear over-hangs. I own a 2007 E350 with such a condition so I know exactly what you are experiencing.

You did not mention the year of your E350 chassis. The 2007 model year is the last year Ford did NOT install a rear stabilizer bar on the E350. Even if you have a Ford-OEM stabilizer bar, changing both the front and rear stabilizer bars to heavy duty versions will do wonders for handling. There is more you can do but I would start there along with proper tire pressure. If you are handy with basic tools, you can buy both bars on the internet and install them yourself to save some serious money. The Helwig brand will be your best value.

DC and Phil, What are the actual lengths of your "24-ft" coaches, and their wheelbases? We had a 24 that was 25-something and on an un-stretched 158" wheelbase. It actually handled pretty well, but was on the earlier kingpin front end, not the newer ball joint axle with the poor sway bar design. If the coach builder wasn't going to stretch it, should have at least used the 176" WB that was available back then.

I'm thinking you guys might have enough wheelbase to reduce rear overhang while shifting an adequate portion of loaded weight to the front axle. With adequate weight distribution, appropriate tire pressure and a half decent alignment, a coach should track OK.

Desert Captain wrote:
Our Nexus is one of the largest 24' C's out there at 101" wide and 11'4" high with a full 7' of headroom throughout the coach. I've never had a problem with trucks passing even in windy conditions. Up to 35 mph relaxed one handed steering is the norm.

FWIW, our 24 foot Itasca Class C coach is about the same dimensions (but on a Ford E450 chassis), It's suspension is still stock as delivered by Ford and Winnebago - which includes a torsion/sway bar on both the front and back, and a steering damper shock in the front - other than having Koni FSD shocks finally installed in the rear to help tame the stiff leaf springs from under-loading an E450 chassis.

I haven't had anywhere near the handling problems that many owners in these forums mention. I attribute it too having the E450 chassis under a small Class C instead of the usual E350 chassis. We can drive it in high cross winds and I can steer it safely using only one hand on the wheel under most conditions.

I guess we lucked out when we found it new on a dealer's lot on the optional E450 chassis, as we wanted the E450 chassis under a small Class C for other reasons -> never guessing that any potential handling issues would not show up with that chassis under a small Class C.

For unknown to me reasons, some Class C manufacturers use the E450 chassis exclusively under all their models - even their small ones. For example - Lazy Daze.

Solo wrote:

Final word, I found no "silver bullet" to ride improvement. It was a progression on my part but in the end, I could at least drive the coach without exhausting myself with constant steering corrections like I experienced in the beginning.

That's an interesting story indeed.

Fortunately a lot of us seem to get acceptable results just with proper tire pressure and the recommended alignment modifications (the silver bullet). That's all I did to mine and it handles pretty much like a large cargo van.....except when trucks blow by from the rear.

I am going to put shocks on it soon, just because it's time, or past time, at 10 years and 50K miles.

We purchased a new Class C (Winnebago Aspect 23D on a E450) in 2005 and started trying to sort out the driveability that you mentioned. I started systematically going through all of the great suggestions you have received. A brief chronology and the results of what I did: 1. Weighed rig adjusted tire pressure. Result-Tires way over-inflated, adjusted and noticed small change-less pounding by rear suspesion. 2. Added HD Bilsteins. Result-Nice improvement to the side-to-side rocking motion. Smooth ride, not harsh like some have reported. Increased resistance to effects of wind-very nice gain in handling. 3. Alignment. Way too much + camber, too much + toe and not enough + caster as it was delivered by the Winnebago dealer. You've been given suggested specs already but, I kept adding just a tad bit more + toe than has been suggested and I felt it made the steering feel slightly "firmer" 4. Helwig Bars front and rear. Even though our 450 had them from the factory, the Helwig bars helped with the swaying. Small gain here, but noticeable. 5. Bilstein steering stablizer-did not like it. I thought it made the steering feel almost "notchy". 6. Added Roadmaster Reflex Stabilizer-nice improvement on steering feel and keeping the coach in my lane with wind issue. 7. Added Firestone air bags to rear (ours did not have any)-NICE! I ran about 50psi in them and really liked the anti-rocking effect and an added benefit that I did not expect, it took most of the pounding feeling I got from the heavy 450 rear springs on expansion joints. 8. Trac bar. No noticeable improvement at all. I had started to tow a Jeep TJ and we picked up a lot of "tail wagging the dog" feeling. What it ended up being was the short wheel base motorhome coupled with the short wheel base toad, the toad was making too quick of steering adjustments. Not to go into great detail here because I've done that already on other posts, after going through the entire suspension on the Jeep and not finding anything abnormal, I added dual aftermarket steering stabilizers on the Jeep and it solved the problem.

Result: Each step added more and more improvement to the ride and drive quality. In the end, a very manageable coach in moderate winds (and we do have winds in the mid-west!). I could still feel the bow wake of larger vehicles but, a huge improvement from the beginning.

Final word, I found no "silver bullet" to ride improvement. It was a progression on my part but in the end, I could at least drive the coach without exhausting myself with constant steering corrections like I experienced in the beginning.

I have the utmost respect for the guys at Henderson's Line Up in Grants Pass OR. They sell a lot of Roadmaster products, but for tightening up the steering, they promote Safe T Plus. Told me adding one of those produces results like going to 5* of caster.

What about Safe T Plus?