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Jul 21, 2017

Researching Class C Motorhomes

We have been researching 2005 - 2009 Class C motorhomes. We wanted a Bigfoot as it was supposed to be very good for winter use with double pane windows and the way it heated the underbelly but they are hard to come by so we've regrouped and are looking at others that might fit our criteria. We also need something that would be able to pull a boat weighing about 5000 lbs.
So far, I've found that the Winnebago Ascent also has double pane windows and it appears that the majority of the homes all have heated underbellies. To make our research a bit easier, I was wondering if the members on this site, that owned the older, 2005 - 2009, Class C motorhomes, 22' - 27', would give us their pros and cons on the homes they own. Also, it would help if you would let us know how long you have owned your home as I believe the longer you own a home, the more critical or appreciative you are with the home. I'd appreciate any advice a member can give to assist in our search. We've owned small campers, tent campers and 5th wheels but never a motorhome so is a new adventure for us. Thanks for any information or advice you can give us.

31 Replies

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Class C Motorhomes","id":"message:2765347","revisionNum":1,"repliesCount":31,"author":{"__ref":"User:user:171443"},"depth":0,"hasGivenKudo":false,"board":{"__ref":"Forum:board:Motorhomesforum-board"},"conversation":{"__ref":"Conversation:conversation:2765347"},"readOnly":false,"editFrozen":false,"moderationData":{"__ref":"ModerationData:moderation_data:2765347"},"body":"We have been researching 2005 - 2009 Class C motorhomes. We wanted a Bigfoot as it was supposed to be very good for winter use with double pane windows and the way it heated the underbelly but they are hard to come by so we've regrouped and are looking at others that might fit our criteria. We also need something that would be able to pull a boat weighing about 5000 lbs.
So far, I've found that the Winnebago Ascent also has double pane windows and it appears that the majority of the homes all have heated underbellies. To make our research a bit easier, I was wondering if the members on this site, that owned the older, 2005 - 2009, Class C motorhomes, 22' - 27', would give us their pros and cons on the homes they own. Also, it would help if you would let us know how long you have owned your home as I believe the longer you own a home, the more critical or appreciative you are with the home. I'd appreciate any advice a member can give to assist in our search. We've owned small campers, tent campers and 5th wheels but never a motorhome so is a new adventure for us. Thanks for any information or advice you can give us.","body@stringLength":"1138","rawBody":"We have been researching 2005 - 2009 Class C motorhomes. We wanted a Bigfoot as it was supposed to be very good for winter use with double pane windows and the way it heated the underbelly but they are hard to come by so we've regrouped and are looking at others that might fit our criteria. We also need something that would be able to pull a boat weighing about 5000 lbs.
So far, I've found that the Winnebago Ascent also has double pane windows and it appears that the majority of the homes all have heated underbellies. To make our research a bit easier, I was wondering if the members on this site, that owned the older, 2005 - 2009, Class C motorhomes, 22' - 27', would give us their pros and cons on the homes they own. Also, it would help if you would let us know how long you have owned your home as I believe the longer you own a home, the more critical or appreciative you are with the home. I'd appreciate any advice a member can give to assist in our search. We've owned small campers, tent campers and 5th wheels but never a motorhome so is a new adventure for us. Thanks for any information or advice you can give us.","kudosSumWeight":0,"postTime":"2017-07-21T09:59:06.000-07:00","images":{"__typename":"AssociatedImageConnection","edges":[],"totalCount":0,"pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null}},"attachments":{"__typename":"AttachmentConnection","pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null},"edges":[]},"tags":{"__typename":"TagConnection","pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null},"edges":[{"__typename":"TagEdge","cursor":"MjUuM3wyLjF8b3wxMHxfTlZffDE","node":{"__typename":"Tag","id":"tag:Class C","text":"Class C","time":"2002-02-25T19:07:57.000-08:00","lastActivityTime":null,"messagesCount":null,"followersCount":null}}]},"timeToRead":1,"currentRevision":{"__ref":"Revision:revision:2765347_1"},"latestVersion":null,"metrics":{"__typename":"MessageMetrics","views":7623},"visibilityScope":"PUBLIC","canonicalUrl":null,"seoTitle":null,"seoDescription":null,"isEscalated":null,"placeholder":false,"originalMessageForPlaceholder":null,"messagePolicies":{"__typename":"MessagePolicies","canModerateSpamMessage":{"__typename":"PolicyResult","failureReason":{"__typename":"FailureReason","message":"error.lithium.policies.feature.moderation_spam.action.moderate_entity.allowed.accessDenied","key":"error.lithium.policies.feature.moderation_spam.action.moderate_entity.allowed.accessDenied","args":[]}}},"archivalData":null,"searchSnippet":"We have been researching 2005 - 2009 Class C motorhomes. 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@media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n display: block;\n float: right;\n }\n\n li {\n display: inline-block;\n padding: $theme-space-small $theme-space-xsmall;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n border-right: 1px solid $goodsam-gray-700;\n float: left;\n padding: 0;\n\n &:last-child {\n border-right: 0;\n }\n }\n\n a,\n button {\n font-size: $theme-type-size-xsmall;\n text-transform: uppercase;\n\n @media screen and (max-width: 768px) {\n display: block;\n padding: $theme-space-small;\n }\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n font-size: $theme-type-size-small;\n }\n }\n\n .dropup {\n background-clip: padding-box;\n border: none;\n font-size: $theme-type-size-small;\n list-style: none;\n padding-left: 5px;\n position: relative;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n float: left;\n }\n\n &:hover {\n .dropdown-menu {\n display: block;\n }\n }\n }\n\n .footer-dropup-toggle {\n background: none;\n border: 0;\n padding: 0;\n\n .fa-angle-up {\n /* @include li-icon ($fa-var-angle-up, $pseudo: before, $size: $theme-type-size-base, $color: $goodsam-gray-footer);\n padding-left: $theme-space-xsmall;\n padding-right: $theme-space-xsmall; */\n }\n }\n\n .dropdown-menu {\n background-color: #fff;\n border-radius: 4px;\n bottom: 100%;\n margin: 2px 0 0;\n min-width: 160px;\n padding: $theme-space-xsmall 0;\n position: absolute;\n right: 0;\n\n li {\n border-right: 0;\n float: none;\n text-align: left;\n\n @media screen and (max-width: 768px) {\n display: block;\n }\n\n a {\n color: $goodsam-gray;\n display: block;\n text-transform: none;\n\n &:hover {\n outline: 5px auto -webkit-focus-ring-color;\n outline-offset: -2px;\n }\n }\n }\n }\n }\n }\n}\n\n.footer-terms {\n display: flex;\n flex-direction: column;\n justify-content: center;\n align-items: center;\n padding: $theme-space-small 0;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n display: block;\n padding: 0;\n }\n\n > .row {\n padding-bottom: $theme-space-small;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n padding-bottom: $theme-space-base;\n }\n\n &.footer-terms-order-1 {\n order: 1;\n }\n\n &.footer-terms-order-2 {\n order: 2;\n }\n }\n}\n\n.footer-bottom {\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n padding-top: $theme-space-small;\n }\n\n .footer-bottom-list-center {\n display: flex;\n flex-direction: row;\n justify-content: center;\n align-items: center;\n flex-wrap: wrap;\n float: none;\n margin: 0 auto;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n display: block;\n }\n\n li {\n display: inline;\n padding: 0 $theme-space-base;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n border-right: 1px solid $goodsam-gray-700;\n padding: 0;\n\n &:first-child a {\n padding-left: 0;\n }\n\n &:last-child {\n border-right: 0;\n\n a {\n padding-right: 0;\n }\n }\n }\n\n a {\n display: inline-block;\n font-size: $theme-type-size-small;\n padding: $theme-space-small;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n display: inline;\n font-size: $theme-type-size-xsmall;\n padding: 0 12px 0 $theme-space-small;\n }\n }\n }\n }\n}\n\n.copyright {\n color: $goodsam-gray-footer;\n font-size: $theme-type-size-base;\n margin-bottom: 0;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n margin-bottom: $theme-space-small;\n }\n}\n\n#gsFooterSocial,\n.gsFooterSocial {\n background: $goodsam-gray-200;\n padding: 0 calc($theme-space-small + $theme-space-xsmall);\n .footerSocialItems,\n #footerSocialItems {\n text-align: center;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 767px) {\n text-align: left;\n }\n }\n\n .footerSocialItems ul,\n #footerSocialItems ul {\n list-style-type: none;\n margin: auto;\n padding-left: 0;\n\n li {\n display: inline;\n margin: 0 $theme-space-small;\n }\n }\n}\n","texts":{"custom.footer.col01.text.01":"Home","custom.footer.col01.url.01":"https://www.goodsam.com/","custom.footer.col01.text.02":"About Us","custom.footer.col01.url.02":"https://www.goodsam.com/about/","custom.footer.col01.text.03":"Contact Us","custom.footer.col01.url.03":"https://www.goodsam.com/contact","custom.footer.col01.text.04":"FAQ","custom.footer.col01.url.04":"https://www.goodsam.com/faq/","custom.footer.col01.text.05":"Site Map","custom.footer.col01.url.05":"https://www.goodsam.com/site-map.aspx","custom.footer.col02.text.01":"Code of Conduct","custom.footer.col02.url.01":"https://www.goodsam.com/code-of-conduct.aspx","custom.footer.col02.text.02":"Affiliate Program","custom.footer.col02.url.02":"https://www.goodsam.com/affiliate/","custom.footer.col02.text.03":"Become a Good Sam Campground","custom.footer.col02.url.03":"https://www.goodsamnetwork.com/","custom.footer.col02.text.04":"Good Sam Rewards Visa","custom.footer.col02.url.04":"https://www.goodsam.com/creditcard/","custom.footer.col02.text.05":"About Marcus Lemonis","custom.footer.col02.url.05":"https://www.goodsam.com/about-marcus-lemonis/","custom.footer.col03.text.01":"RV Sales","custom.footer.col03.url.01":"https://rv.campingworld.com/","custom.footer.col03.text.02":"RV Gear","custom.footer.col03.url.02":"https://www.campingworld.com/shop/","custom.footer.col03.text.03":"RV Maintenance & Repair","custom.footer.col03.url.03":"https://rv.campingworld.com/service/","custom.footer.col03.text.04":"Good Sam Membership & Services","custom.footer.col03.url.04":"https://www.goodsam.com/","custom.footer.col03.text.05":"Campground Solutions","custom.footer.col03.url.05":"https://campgroundsolutions.goodsam.com/","custom.footer.col04.text.01":"Helpful Articles and Tips","custom.footer.col04.url.01":"https://www.goodsam.com/article","custom.footer.col05.text.01":"Good Sam Apps","custom.footer.col05.url.01":"https://www.goodsam.com/rv-camping-apps/","custom.footer.col05.text.02":"Take Good Sam apps on your next RV Trip!","custom.footer.col05.url.02":"https://www.goodsam.com/rv-camping-apps/","custom.footer.col06.text.01":"Customer Service Phone Number:","custom.footer.col06.phone.number":"866-205-7451","custom.footer.col06.text.02":"Club contact number 866-205-7451","custom.footer.col06.url.02":"tel:866-205-7451","custom.footer.row01.logo.text":"Good Sam Home","custom.footer.row01.text.01":"Blog","custom.footer.row01.url.01":"http://blog.goodsam.com/","custom.footer.row01.text.02":"Careers","custom.footer.row01.url.02":"https://www.campingworldcareers.com/","custom.footer.row01.text.03":"Contact Us","custom.footer.row01.text.toggle":"Click to expand","custom.footer.row01.text.04":"Good Sam","custom.footer.row01.url.04":"https://www.goodsam.com/contact/","custom.footer.row01.text.05":"Camping World","custom.footer.row01.url.05":"https://www.campingworld.com/contact/","custom.footer.row01.text.06":"RV Sales","custom.footer.row01.url.06":"https://rv.campingworld.com/contact","custom.footer.row02.text.01":"Privacy Policy","custom.footer.row02.url.01":"https://www.goodsam.com/privacy-policy.aspx","custom.footer.row02.text.02":"California Privacy Rights","custom.footer.row02.url.02":"https://www.goodsam.com/privacy-policy.aspx#calinevada","custom.footer.row02.text.03":"Investor Relations","custom.footer.row02.url.03":"http://investor.campingworld.com","custom.footer.row02.text.04":"Terms of Use","custom.footer.row02.url.04":"https://www.goodsam.com/terms.aspx","custom.footer.row02.text.05":"Accessibility Commitment","custom.footer.row02.url.05":"https://www.goodsam.com/accessibility-commitment.aspx","custom.footer.row02.text.06":"Team Member Assistance","custom.footer.row02.url.06":"https://www.goodsam.com/helping-hand","custom.footer.social.facebook.text":"Facebook","custom.footer.social.facebook.url":"https://www.facebook.com/GoodSam","custom.footer.social.twitter.text":"Twitter","custom.footer.social.twitter.url":"https://twitter.com/GoodSam","custom.footer.social.youtube.text":"YouTube","custom.footer.social.youtube.url":"https://www.youtube.com/user/goodsamrvers","custom.footer.social.instagram.text":"Instagram","custom.footer.social.instagram.url":"https://www.instagram.com/goodsam/?hl=en","custom.footer.social.pinterest.text":"Pinterest","custom.footer.social.pinterest.url":"https://www.pinterest.com/goodsam/","custom-community-footer-copyright.text":"© {0} Good Sam Enterprises, LLC. All rights reserved."},"defaults":{"config":{"applicablePages":[],"description":"","fetchedContent":null,"__typename":"ComponentConfiguration"},"props":[],"__typename":"ComponentProperties"},"components":[{"id":"custom.widget.CustomFooter","form":null,"config":null,"props":[],"__typename":"Component"}],"grouping":"CUSTOM","__typename":"ComponentTemplate"},"properties":{"config":{"applicablePages":[],"description":"","fetchedContent":null,"__typename":"ComponentConfiguration"},"props":[],"__typename":"ComponentProperties"},"form":null,"__typename":"Component","localOverride":false},"globalCss":{"css":".custom_widget_CustomFooter_footer-wrapper_hp49n_21 {\n background: #474442;\n\n a {\n color: #dfdfdf;\n font-weight: 100;\n\n &:focus,\n &:hover {\n color: #dfdfdf;\n }\n }\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_sr-only_hp49n_34 {\n position: absolute;\n width: 0.0625rem;\n height: 0.0625rem;\n margin: -0.0625rem;\n padding: 0;\n overflow: hidden;\n clip: rect(0, 0, 0, 0);\n border: 0;\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_footer_hp49n_21 {\n line-height: 1.25rem;\n /* margin-left: auto;\n\tmargin-right: auto;\n\tpadding-left: $bootstrap-padding;\n\tpadding-right: $bootstrap-padding; */\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_container_hp49n_52 {\n margin-left: auto;\n margin-right: auto;\n max-width: 73.125rem;\n padding-left: 0.9375rem;\n padding-right: 0.9375rem;\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_row_hp49n_60 {\n /* HOTFIX - PSDS-32115 - Remove negative margins to fix mobile display */\n\n &::after {\n clear: both;\n }\n\n &::after,\n &::before {\n content: ' ';\n display: table;\n }\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_col_hp49n_74 {\n float: left;\n min-height: 0.0625rem;\n padding-left: 0.9375rem;\n padding-right: 0.9375rem;\n position: relative;\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-xs-10_hp49n_82,\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-sm-10_hp49n_83 {\n width: 83.33333333%;\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-xs-12_hp49n_87,\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-sm-4_hp49n_88,\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-sm-12_hp49n_89,\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-md-2_hp49n_90,\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-md-8_hp49n_91,\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-md-10_hp49n_92,\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-md-12_hp49n_93,\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-lg-2_hp49n_94,\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-lg-8_hp49n_95,\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-lg-12_hp49n_96 {\n width: 100%;\n}\n@media screen and (min-width: 767px) {\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-md-2_hp49n_90 {\n width: 16.66666667%;\n }\n\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-md-8_hp49n_91 {\n width: 66.66666667%;\n }\n\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-md-10_hp49n_92 {\n width: 83.33333333%;\n }\n\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-md-12_hp49n_93 {\n width: 100%;\n }\n}\n@media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-lg-2_hp49n_94 {\n width: 16.66666667%;\n }\n\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-lg-4_hp49n_123 {\n /* faking it; should be 33.33333333% */\n width: 25%;\n }\n\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-lg-8_hp49n_95 {\n /* faking it; should be 66.66666667% */\n width: 75%;\n }\n\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-lg-10_hp49n_133 {\n width: 83.33333333%;\n }\n\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_col-lg-12_hp49n_96 {\n width: 100%;\n }\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_pull-left_hp49n_142 {\n float: left;\n width: 100%;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 767px) {\n float: none;\n width: auto;\n }\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n float: left;\n }\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_pad-bottom-20_hp49n_156 {\n padding-bottom: 1.25rem;\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_pad-top-20_hp49n_160 {\n padding-top: 1.25rem;\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_pad-top-30_hp49n_164 {\n padding-top: calc(0.9375rem * 2);\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_pad-top-40_hp49n_168 {\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n padding-top: 2.5rem;\n }\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_margin-left-20_hp49n_174 {\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n margin-left: 1.25rem;\n }\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_margin-top-20_hp49n_180 {\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n margin-top: 1.25rem;\n }\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_text-center_hp49n_186 {\n text-align: center;\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_text-right_hp49n_190 {\n text-align: right;\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_text-smaller_hp49n_194,\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_text-small_hp49n_194 {\n font-size: 0.75rem;\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_text-large_hp49n_199 {\n font-size: 1.25rem;\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_footer-contact_hp49n_203 {\n p {\n display: flex;\n flex-direction: row;\n justify-content: center;\n align-items: center;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n display: block;\n }\n\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_text-small_hp49n_194 {\n @media screen and (max-width: 991px) {\n font-size: 1rem;\n }\n }\n }\n\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_icon-gs-app_hp49n_221 {\n margin-right: 1.25rem;\n max-width: 2.375rem;\n padding-right: 0.125rem;\n padding-top: 0.125rem;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n margin-left: 8.75rem;\n margin-right: 0;\n }\n }\n\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_gsi-icon-phone_hp49n_233 {\n margin-bottom: -0.125rem;\n margin-right: 0.625rem;\n max-height: 1.25rem;\n width: 1.25rem;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n margin-right: 0;\n }\n }\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_footer-link_hp49n_245 {\n a,\n button {\n color: #dfdfdf;\n padding: 0 0.75rem 0 0.625rem;\n }\n\n li:last-child a {\n padding-right: 0;\n }\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_footer-top-links_hp49n_257 {\n padding-left: 0;\n list-style: none;\n display: flex;\n flex-direction: row;\n justify-content: center;\n align-items: center;\n flex-wrap: wrap;\n margin-bottom: 0.625rem;\n font-size: 1rem;\n\n @media screen and (max-width: 480px) {\n flex-direction: column;\n }\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n display: block;\n }\n\n li {\n margin-bottom: 1.25rem;\n padding: 0 1.25rem;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n padding: 0;\n }\n }\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_footer-top_hp49n_257 {\n border-bottom: 2px solid #c7c7c7;\n display: block;\n margin: auto;\n padding-top: 0.625rem;\n text-align: center;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n text-align: left;\n }\n\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_footer-logo_hp49n_297 {\n max-height: 3.75rem;\n max-width: 8.75rem;\n padding: 0.625rem;\n padding-left: 0;\n padding-top: 0;\n }\n\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_footer-list_hp49n_305 {\n display: flex;\n justify-content: center;\n align-items: center;\n list-style: none;\n margin-bottom: 0;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n display: block;\n float: right;\n }\n\n li {\n display: inline-block;\n padding: 0.625rem 0.3125rem;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n border-right: 1px solid #666;\n float: left;\n padding: 0;\n\n &:last-child {\n border-right: 0;\n }\n }\n\n a,\n button {\n font-size: 0.75rem;\n text-transform: uppercase;\n\n @media screen and (max-width: 768px) {\n display: block;\n padding: 0.625rem;\n }\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n font-size: 0.875rem;\n }\n }\n\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_dropup_hp49n_346 {\n background-clip: padding-box;\n border: none;\n font-size: 0.875rem;\n list-style: none;\n padding-left: 0.3125rem;\n position: relative;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n float: left;\n }\n\n &:hover {\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_dropdown-menu_hp49n_359 {\n display: block;\n }\n }\n }\n\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_footer-dropup-toggle_hp49n_365 {\n background: none;\n border: 0;\n padding: 0;\n\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_fa-angle-up_hp49n_370 {\n /* @include li-icon ($fa-var-angle-up, $pseudo: before, $size: $theme-type-size-base, $color: $goodsam-gray-footer);\n padding-left: $theme-space-xsmall;\n padding-right: $theme-space-xsmall; */\n }\n }\n\n .custom_widget_CustomFooter_dropdown-menu_hp49n_359 {\n background-color: #fff;\n border-radius: 0.25rem;\n bottom: 100%;\n margin: 0.125rem 0 0;\n min-width: 10rem;\n padding: 0.3125rem 0;\n position: absolute;\n right: 0;\n\n li {\n border-right: 0;\n float: none;\n text-align: left;\n\n @media screen and (max-width: 768px) {\n display: block;\n }\n\n a {\n color: #474442;\n display: block;\n text-transform: none;\n\n &:hover {\n outline: 5px auto -webkit-focus-ring-color;\n outline-offset: -2px;\n }\n }\n }\n }\n }\n }\n}\n.custom_widget_CustomFooter_footer-terms_hp49n_412 {\n display: flex;\n flex-direction: column;\n justify-content: center;\n align-items: center;\n padding: 0.625rem 0;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n display: block;\n padding: 0;\n }\n\n > .custom_widget_CustomFooter_row_hp49n_60 {\n padding-bottom: 0.625rem;\n\n @media screen and (min-width: 992px) {\n padding-bottom: 1.25rem;\n }\n\n &.custom_widget_CustomFooter_footer-terms-order-1_hp49n_431 {\n 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Researching Class C Motorhomes","moderationData":{"__ref":"ModerationData:moderation_data:2765378"},"body":"
pnichols wrote:
Ford introduced their 5R110 5-speed (6 ratios internally) computer controlled TorqueShift transmission in their 2005 E350 and E450 chassis.

If you find a \"2005\" motorhome with only the older 4-speed transmission, then you have a 2005 coach built on a 2004 Ford chassis ... which easily can be the case.

To some folks, the differences between at least the 2005 onwards E350 and E450 chassis is important. We specifically looked for and bought our 24 foot Itasca Class C new in 2005 on the optional-at-the-time E450 chassis for these reasons:

1. Weight carrying capacity - we wanted zero concerns with over-loading.

2. We wanted the larger brake swept areas of the E450 for both complete confidence on all road down grades and for overall longer brake pad life.

3. We wanted the E450's thicker frame steel for added stiffness to help prevent coach frame twist when traveling off-payment.

4. We wanted the E450's hydraulic boost power brakes instead of the vacuum boost power brakes that the E350 had (at the time).

5. We wanted the E450's lower rear differential gear ratio for increased power going up hills, for decreased transmission heating from torque converter slippage, and for improved engine braking when going down grades and when coming to a stop in Tow/Haul mode. We now travel with the Tow/Haul mode engaged all the time for the improved response it provides.

6. We wanted the larger diameter drive shaft to insure that we would never experience any issues with drive shaft vibration.

7. We wanted the wider rear stance in the rear duallies that the E450 provides for maximum lateral stability of the motorhome in high winds, when big rigs pass, and on roadway curves.


Good description of what the E450 offers! :C

It is what I bought for my first MH. I didn't even know as a newbie they made a E350 So I couldn't understand all the posts complaining about handling, stability, etc.

Because my MH drove down the road like an iron horse no matter what the weather and I never felt the semi's passing, and she rode like a limo. The wider beam does make a difference. And on mine I also had the basement model which comes with all the storage bays a big Class A offers.

So I couldn't understand the complaints on the forum regarding the same MH I had. Which is when I then learned they also made a E350 and those owners were the ones with all the handling problems.

So, from my experience buying/falling into buying a E450 made a big difference on my enjoying and driving it.","body@stripHtml({\"removeProcessingText\":false,\"removeSpoilerMarkup\":false,\"removeTocMarkup\":false,\"truncateLength\":200})@stringLength":"203","kudosSumWeight":0,"repliesCount":0,"postTime":"2017-07-24T17:31:17.000-07:00","lastPublishTime":"2017-07-24T17:31:17.000-07:00","metrics":{"__typename":"MessageMetrics","views":463},"visibilityScope":"PUBLIC","placeholder":false,"originalMessageForPlaceholder":null,"isEscalated":null,"solution":false,"entityType":"FORUM_REPLY","eventPath":"grouphub:Motorhomes/category:TRAVELCENTER/community:feyqc97479board:Motorhomesforum-board/message:2765347/message:2765378","replies":{"__typename":"MessageConnection","pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null},"edges":[]},"customFields":[],"attachments":{"__typename":"AttachmentConnection","edges":[],"pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null}}},"ModerationData:moderation_data:2765377":{"__typename":"ModerationData","id":"moderation_data:2765377","status":"APPROVED","rejectReason":null,"isReportedAbuse":false,"rejectUser":null,"rejectTime":null,"rejectActorType":null},"ForumReplyMessage:message:2765377":{"__typename":"ForumReplyMessage","author":{"__ref":"User:user:171443"},"id":"message:2765377","revisionNum":1,"uid":2765377,"depth":1,"hasGivenKudo":false,"subscribed":false,"board":{"__ref":"Forum:board:Motorhomesforum-board"},"parent":{"__ref":"ForumTopicMessage:message:2765347"},"conversation":{"__ref":"Conversation:conversation:2765347"},"subject":"Re: Researching Class C Motorhomes","moderationData":{"__ref":"ModerationData:moderation_data:2765377"},"body":"Gary, thanks for the links, we'll look at them","body@stripHtml({\"removeProcessingText\":false,\"removeSpoilerMarkup\":false,\"removeTocMarkup\":false,\"truncateLength\":200})@stringLength":"46","kudosSumWeight":0,"repliesCount":0,"postTime":"2017-07-23T09:07:36.000-07:00","lastPublishTime":"2017-07-23T09:07:36.000-07:00","metrics":{"__typename":"MessageMetrics","views":464},"visibilityScope":"PUBLIC","placeholder":false,"originalMessageForPlaceholder":null,"isEscalated":null,"solution":false,"entityType":"FORUM_REPLY","eventPath":"grouphub:Motorhomes/category:TRAVELCENTER/community:feyqc97479board:Motorhomesforum-board/message:2765347/message:2765377","replies":{"__typename":"MessageConnection","pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null},"edges":[]},"customFields":[],"attachments":{"__typename":"AttachmentConnection","edges":[],"pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null}}},"User:user:233998":{"__typename":"User","id":"user:233998","uid":233998,"login":"garyhaupt","biography":null,"registrationData":{"__typename":"RegistrationData","status":null,"registrationTime":"2003-11-21T15:41:43.000-08:00"},"deleted":false,"email":"","avatar":{"__typename":"UserAvatar","url":"https://community.goodsam.com/t5/s/feyqc97479/m_assets/avatars/default/avatar-9.svg?time=1737155183000"},"rank":{"__ref":"Rank:rank:42"},"entityType":"USER","eventPath":"community:feyqc97479/user:233998"},"ModerationData:moderation_data:2765376":{"__typename":"ModerationData","id":"moderation_data:2765376","status":"APPROVED","rejectReason":null,"isReportedAbuse":false,"rejectUser":null,"rejectTime":null,"rejectActorType":null},"ForumReplyMessage:message:2765376":{"__typename":"ForumReplyMessage","author":{"__ref":"User:user:233998"},"id":"message:2765376","revisionNum":1,"uid":2765376,"depth":1,"hasGivenKudo":false,"subscribed":false,"board":{"__ref":"Forum:board:Motorhomesforum-board"},"parent":{"__ref":"ForumTopicMessage:message:2765347"},"conversation":{"__ref":"Conversation:conversation:2765347"},"subject":"Re: Researching Class C Motorhomes","moderationData":{"__ref":"ModerationData:moderation_data:2765376"},"body":"
memtb wrote:
Thanks Gary, we've looked for the Triple E as we had heard they were good RV'S but to date, we haven't found any.


Copy and paste into your search bar...'24 ft Triple E for sale'...with punctuation marks...


I have no idea if still available.

https://www.kijiji.ca/v-rv-motorhome/victoria-bc/regal-triple-e-class-c-motorhome-24-ft/1282919224?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true

https://www.rvtrader.com/dealers/Johnson-RV-723523/listing/2012-Triple-E-Regency-GT24-GT24MB-122609043


Gary Haupt","body@stripHtml({\"removeProcessingText\":false,\"removeSpoilerMarkup\":false,\"removeTocMarkup\":false,\"truncateLength\":200})@stringLength":"203","kudosSumWeight":0,"repliesCount":0,"postTime":"2017-07-23T08:28:19.000-07:00","lastPublishTime":"2017-07-23T08:28:19.000-07:00","metrics":{"__typename":"MessageMetrics","views":464},"visibilityScope":"PUBLIC","placeholder":false,"originalMessageForPlaceholder":null,"isEscalated":null,"solution":false,"entityType":"FORUM_REPLY","eventPath":"grouphub:Motorhomes/category:TRAVELCENTER/community:feyqc97479board:Motorhomesforum-board/message:2765347/message:2765376","replies":{"__typename":"MessageConnection","pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null},"edges":[]},"customFields":[],"attachments":{"__typename":"AttachmentConnection","edges":[],"pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null}}},"ModerationData:moderation_data:2765375":{"__typename":"ModerationData","id":"moderation_data:2765375","status":"APPROVED","rejectReason":null,"isReportedAbuse":false,"rejectUser":null,"rejectTime":null,"rejectActorType":null},"ForumReplyMessage:message:2765375":{"__typename":"ForumReplyMessage","author":{"__ref":"User:user:171443"},"id":"message:2765375","revisionNum":1,"uid":2765375,"depth":1,"hasGivenKudo":false,"subscribed":false,"board":{"__ref":"Forum:board:Motorhomesforum-board"},"parent":{"__ref":"ForumTopicMessage:message:2765347"},"conversation":{"__ref":"Conversation:conversation:2765347"},"subject":"Re: Researching Class C Motorhomes","moderationData":{"__ref":"ModerationData:moderation_data:2765375"},"body":"Pnichols - that is good information also, thank you!","body@stripHtml({\"removeProcessingText\":false,\"removeSpoilerMarkup\":false,\"removeTocMarkup\":false,\"truncateLength\":200})@stringLength":"52","kudosSumWeight":0,"repliesCount":0,"postTime":"2017-07-23T06:07:56.000-07:00","lastPublishTime":"2017-07-23T06:07:56.000-07:00","metrics":{"__typename":"MessageMetrics","views":465},"visibilityScope":"PUBLIC","placeholder":false,"originalMessageForPlaceholder":null,"isEscalated":null,"solution":false,"entityType":"FORUM_REPLY","eventPath":"grouphub:Motorhomes/category:TRAVELCENTER/community:feyqc97479board:Motorhomesforum-board/message:2765347/message:2765375","replies":{"__typename":"MessageConnection","pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null},"edges":[]},"customFields":[],"attachments":{"__typename":"AttachmentConnection","edges":[],"pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null}}},"User:user:294439":{"__typename":"User","id":"user:294439","uid":294439,"login":"PghBob","biography":null,"registrationData":{"__typename":"RegistrationData","status":null,"registrationTime":"2013-08-16T07:25:59.000-07:00"},"deleted":false,"email":"","avatar":{"__typename":"UserAvatar","url":"https://community.goodsam.com/t5/s/feyqc97479/m_assets/avatars/default/avatar-12.svg?time=1737155183000"},"rank":{"__ref":"Rank:rank:42"},"entityType":"USER","eventPath":"community:feyqc97479/user:294439"},"ModerationData:moderation_data:2765374":{"__typename":"ModerationData","id":"moderation_data:2765374","status":"APPROVED","rejectReason":null,"isReportedAbuse":false,"rejectUser":null,"rejectTime":null,"rejectActorType":null},"ForumReplyMessage:message:2765374":{"__typename":"ForumReplyMessage","author":{"__ref":"User:user:294439"},"id":"message:2765374","revisionNum":1,"uid":2765374,"depth":1,"hasGivenKudo":false,"subscribed":false,"board":{"__ref":"Forum:board:Motorhomesforum-board"},"parent":{"__ref":"ForumTopicMessage:message:2765347"},"conversation":{"__ref":"Conversation:conversation:2765347"},"subject":"Re: Researching Class C Motorhomes","moderationData":{"__ref":"ModerationData:moderation_data:2765374"},"body":"
Gulfcoast wrote:
Looks like the Lazy Daze RV's are scarce on the east coast.


Yes, there are fewer of them on the East Coast. The only factory is a family operation near Ontario California, and they only sell direct from the factory so there are no dealers. But, there are enough in the east to form the North East LD Club and the South East LD club.","body@stripHtml({\"removeProcessingText\":false,\"removeSpoilerMarkup\":false,\"removeTocMarkup\":false,\"truncateLength\":200})@stringLength":"203","kudosSumWeight":0,"repliesCount":0,"postTime":"2017-07-23T05:53:59.000-07:00","lastPublishTime":"2017-07-23T05:53:59.000-07:00","metrics":{"__typename":"MessageMetrics","views":465},"visibilityScope":"PUBLIC","placeholder":false,"originalMessageForPlaceholder":null,"isEscalated":null,"solution":false,"entityType":"FORUM_REPLY","eventPath":"grouphub:Motorhomes/category:TRAVELCENTER/community:feyqc97479board:Motorhomesforum-board/message:2765347/message:2765374","replies":{"__typename":"MessageConnection","pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null},"edges":[]},"customFields":[],"attachments":{"__typename":"AttachmentConnection","edges":[],"pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null}}},"User:user:24570":{"__typename":"User","id":"user:24570","uid":24570,"login":"RobertRyan","biography":null,"registrationData":{"__typename":"RegistrationData","status":null,"registrationTime":"2008-03-15T23:05:39.000-07:00"},"deleted":false,"email":"","avatar":{"__typename":"UserAvatar","url":"https://community.goodsam.com/t5/s/feyqc97479/m_assets/avatars/default/avatar-4.svg?time=1737155183000"},"rank":{"__ref":"Rank:rank:42"},"entityType":"USER","eventPath":"community:feyqc97479/user:24570"},"ModerationData:moderation_data:2765373":{"__typename":"ModerationData","id":"moderation_data:2765373","status":"APPROVED","rejectReason":null,"isReportedAbuse":false,"rejectUser":null,"rejectTime":null,"rejectActorType":null},"ForumReplyMessage:message:2765373":{"__typename":"ForumReplyMessage","author":{"__ref":"User:user:24570"},"id":"message:2765373","revisionNum":1,"uid":2765373,"depth":1,"hasGivenKudo":false,"subscribed":false,"board":{"__ref":"Forum:board:Motorhomesforum-board"},"parent":{"__ref":"ForumTopicMessage:message:2765347"},"conversation":{"__ref":"Conversation:conversation:2765347"},"subject":"Re: Researching Class C Motorhomes","moderationData":{"__ref":"ModerationData:moderation_data:2765373"},"body":"
hpdrver wrote:
Ron,

From looking at your Mirage, makes me wonder why they don't make motor homes like this anymore. If you took a pick up cab chassis and put a large bed over the cab and dinette, sofa and bath in the main cabin, you would have a easy to drive coach for two under 27'.

They do in Australia, but they are 4x4 units that do surprisingly well off road
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memtb wrote:
Thanks Ron, I'll pass that information to my husband. As we've just begun, we'll talk to the gentleman more and go from there.
Good for you. Investigate that rig. If it meets your needs and budget, is in great shape, and it tickles your tummy, and is not over priced by piles, then buy it. Coach House is a great brand.","body@stripHtml({\"removeProcessingText\":false,\"removeSpoilerMarkup\":false,\"removeTocMarkup\":false,\"truncateLength\":200})@stringLength":"203","kudosSumWeight":0,"repliesCount":0,"postTime":"2017-07-22T20:44:21.000-07:00","lastPublishTime":"2017-07-22T20:44:21.000-07:00","metrics":{"__typename":"MessageMetrics","views":463},"visibilityScope":"PUBLIC","placeholder":false,"originalMessageForPlaceholder":null,"isEscalated":null,"solution":false,"entityType":"FORUM_REPLY","eventPath":"grouphub:Motorhomes/category:TRAVELCENTER/community:feyqc97479board:Motorhomesforum-board/message:2765347/message:2765372","replies":{"__typename":"MessageConnection","pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null},"edges":[]},"customFields":[],"attachments":{"__typename":"AttachmentConnection","edges":[],"pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null}}},"ModerationData:moderation_data:2765371":{"__typename":"ModerationData","id":"moderation_data:2765371","status":"APPROVED","rejectReason":null,"isReportedAbuse":false,"rejectUser":null,"rejectTime":null,"rejectActorType":null},"ForumReplyMessage:message:2765371":{"__typename":"ForumReplyMessage","author":{"__ref":"User:user:171443"},"id":"message:2765371","revisionNum":1,"uid":2765371,"depth":1,"hasGivenKudo":false,"subscribed":false,"board":{"__ref":"Forum:board:Motorhomesforum-board"},"parent":{"__ref":"ForumTopicMessage:message:2765347"},"conversation":{"__ref":"Conversation:conversation:2765347"},"subject":"Re: Researching Class C Motorhomes","moderationData":{"__ref":"ModerationData:moderation_data:2765371"},"body":"Thanks Ron, I'll pass that information to my husband. As we've just begun, we'll talk to the gentleman more and go from there.","body@stripHtml({\"removeProcessingText\":false,\"removeSpoilerMarkup\":false,\"removeTocMarkup\":false,\"truncateLength\":200})@stringLength":"127","kudosSumWeight":0,"repliesCount":0,"postTime":"2017-07-22T17:28:58.000-07:00","lastPublishTime":"2017-07-22T17:28:58.000-07:00","metrics":{"__typename":"MessageMetrics","views":464},"visibilityScope":"PUBLIC","placeholder":false,"originalMessageForPlaceholder":null,"isEscalated":null,"solution":false,"entityType":"FORUM_REPLY","eventPath":"grouphub:Motorhomes/category:TRAVELCENTER/community:feyqc97479board:Motorhomesforum-board/message:2765347/message:2765371","replies":{"__typename":"MessageConnection","pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null},"edges":[]},"customFields":[],"attachments":{"__typename":"AttachmentConnection","edges":[],"pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null}}},"User:user:730":{"__typename":"User","id":"user:730","uid":730,"login":"pnichols","biography":null,"registrationData":{"__typename":"RegistrationData","status":null,"registrationTime":"2005-04-26T06:29:00.000-07:00"},"deleted":false,"email":"","avatar":{"__typename":"UserAvatar","url":"https://community.goodsam.com/t5/s/feyqc97479/m_assets/avatars/default/avatar-6.svg?time=1737155183000"},"rank":{"__ref":"Rank:rank:41"},"entityType":"USER","eventPath":"community:feyqc97479/user:730"},"ModerationData:moderation_data:2765370":{"__typename":"ModerationData","id":"moderation_data:2765370","status":"APPROVED","rejectReason":null,"isReportedAbuse":false,"rejectUser":null,"rejectTime":null,"rejectActorType":null},"ForumReplyMessage:message:2765370":{"__typename":"ForumReplyMessage","author":{"__ref":"User:user:730"},"id":"message:2765370","revisionNum":1,"uid":2765370,"depth":1,"hasGivenKudo":false,"subscribed":false,"board":{"__ref":"Forum:board:Motorhomesforum-board"},"parent":{"__ref":"ForumTopicMessage:message:2765347"},"conversation":{"__ref":"Conversation:conversation:2765347"},"subject":"Re: Researching Class C Motorhomes","moderationData":{"__ref":"ModerationData:moderation_data:2765370"},"body":"Ford introduced their 5R110 5-speed (6 ratios internally) computer controlled TorqueShift transmission in their 2005 E350 and E450 chassis.

If you find a \"2005\" motorhome with only the older 4-speed transmission, then you have a 2005 coach built on a 2004 Ford chassis ... which easily can be the case.

To some folks, the differences between at least the 2005 onwards E350 and E450 chassis is important. We specifically looked for and bought our 24 foot Itasca Class C new in 2005 on the optional-at-the-time E450 chassis for these reasons:

1. Weight carrying capacity - we wanted zero concerns with over-loading.

2. We wanted the larger brake swept areas of the E450 for both complete confidence on all road down grades and for overall longer brake pad life.

3. We wanted the E450's thicker frame steel for added stiffness to help prevent coach frame twist when traveling off-payment.

4. We wanted the E450's hydraulic boost power brakes instead of the vacuum boost power brakes that the E350 had (at the time).

5. We wanted the E450's lower rear differential gear ratio for increased power going up hills, for decreased transmission heating from torque converter slippage, and for improved engine braking when going down grades and when coming to a stop in Tow/Haul mode. We now travel with the Tow/Haul mode engaged all the time for the improved response it provides.

6. We wanted the larger diameter drive shaft to insure that we would never experience any issues with drive shaft vibration.

7. We wanted the wider rear stance in the rear duallies that the E450 provides for maximum lateral stability of the motorhome in high winds, when big rigs pass, and on roadway curves.","body@stripHtml({\"removeProcessingText\":false,\"removeSpoilerMarkup\":false,\"removeTocMarkup\":false,\"truncateLength\":200})@stringLength":"203","kudosSumWeight":0,"repliesCount":0,"postTime":"2017-07-22T17:21:55.000-07:00","lastPublishTime":"2017-07-22T17:21:55.000-07:00","metrics":{"__typename":"MessageMetrics","views":465},"visibilityScope":"PUBLIC","placeholder":false,"originalMessageForPlaceholder":null,"isEscalated":null,"solution":false,"entityType":"FORUM_REPLY","eventPath":"grouphub:Motorhomes/category:TRAVELCENTER/community:feyqc97479board:Motorhomesforum-board/message:2765347/message:2765370","replies":{"__typename":"MessageConnection","pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null},"edges":[]},"customFields":[],"attachments":{"__typename":"AttachmentConnection","edges":[],"pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null}}},"ModerationData:moderation_data:2765369":{"__typename":"ModerationData","id":"moderation_data:2765369","status":"APPROVED","rejectReason":null,"isReportedAbuse":false,"rejectUser":null,"rejectTime":null,"rejectActorType":null},"ForumReplyMessage:message:2765369":{"__typename":"ForumReplyMessage","author":{"__ref":"User:user:83233"},"id":"message:2765369","revisionNum":1,"uid":2765369,"depth":1,"hasGivenKudo":false,"subscribed":false,"board":{"__ref":"Forum:board:Motorhomesforum-board"},"parent":{"__ref":"ForumTopicMessage:message:2765347"},"conversation":{"__ref":"Conversation:conversation:2765347"},"subject":"Re: Researching Class C Motorhomes","moderationData":{"__ref":"ModerationData:moderation_data:2765369"},"body":"
memtb wrote:
The Tow/Haul is very important to us also, just spoke with a gentleman from Oregon who has a 2005 Coach House but it only has the 4 speed transmission so we don't need to pursue it any further.
Wow, you would rule out a 2005 Coach House because of the chassis is a tad bit lesser? A 2004/2005 E350 and E450 chassis is still a great chassis. When we are talking about improvements, we are not talking inferior to superior here. We are talking about very small incremental improvements that primarily benefit the biggest and heaviest of class-C motor homes.

As far as the brake size is concerned, if you compare the specs of a 2005 to a 2009 E350 & E450, it's not much. Caliper piston diameter increased from 2.2 to 2.36 which is only 0.14\", rotor from 13.03 to 13.58 an increase in the radius by 0.25\". It's better no doubt about it, but if buying a shorter lighter rig like a 24 foot 2005 Coach House, you have more margin than most other class Cs. Our 23'-8\" 2007 E350 chassis has plenty of stopping power traversing mountains and canyons.

I advise to check out that 2005 Coach House. If it's right for you and your budget, don't let the chassis get in your way of buying it. We talk here on this forum emphasizing \"better\" of which we are not wrong. 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