RVing in the winter

pnichols wrote:

m37charlie wrote:
Winter camping: ....
.....Spending time outdoors in near cryogenic temperatures especially when solar insolation is minimal (like around the solstice) isn’t fun except as a novelty. So even if one’s RV can theoretically “take it”, are you going to spend all the long nights inside and venture outdoors for 2 hours a day?
I realize camping in ~+20F with much longer lower 48 days is much different.
But there are very good reasons why lots of Canadians migrate themselves and their (somewhat cold capable) RVs to Mexico or the USA southern states in the winter if they are full timers.
Sorry for the lengthy post but the stories are true and the calculations correct.

Dr. Aarons,

A great writeup on your adventures in the extreme cold (that I referenced in part above)!!

And now ... going off topic regarding another ultimate RV'ing challenge ... in which neither more clothes nor nudity are a solution. What would you recommend for drycamping in above 100 degree F outside air temperatures?

The reason I ask is this: The DW and myself enjoy rockhounding using our small Class C motorhome as a base ... even if it takes us out into the U.S. version of The Far Side of Beyond. The good thing about doing this in the summer is the complete lack of any other people around. The bad thing about doing this is it's in the summer. Our worst case was way out there in the Texas Panhandle during August. We had to use both the rooftop A/C and built-in RV generator, plus the cab A/C with the engine idling - to keep from melting away after a few minutes outside. The complete serenity while walking around outside in lite clothing under umbrellas and cloudless blue skies was beyond priceless ... just us, the RV, and the Road Runners scampering about. ;)

Here's my answer to my own question above on high temperature boondock camping:

1. Inside the coach - use a high power 12V fan powered from the coach batteries for directed air right on you, and/or use the rooftop vent fan powered from the coach batteries set on high for circulation.

2. Inside the coach - use the rooftop A/C and built-in generator, while pressurizing the coach interior to keep all generator fumes from entering.

3. Outside the coach - sit under the awning and use a high power 12V fan on an extension cord powered from the coach batteries for directed air aimed right at you while sitting in a lounge chair. NEVER walk around outside not under the awning in high sun situations without being under a light colored umbrella.

For us when we're camping in the heat for a reason, we cannot move to another location to escape the heat. I'm curious as to how others deal with high temperature camping - without moving the RV out of the heat.

Sleep in a folding chair outside under an awning. Or start driving poleward. Or, seek higher elevation. The standard lapse rate is 3 degF/1000’

Yosemite, you’re actually serious about waiting until you can drive a cyber truck to all Alaska national parks? Roflmao.
Hope you’re a very young man, to think that may happen In your lifetime.

m37charlie wrote:
Winter camping: ....
.....Spending time outdoors in near cryogenic temperatures especially when solar insolation is minimal (like around the solstice) isn’t fun except as a novelty. So even if one’s RV can theoretically “take it”, are you going to spend all the long nights inside and venture outdoors for 2 hours a day?
I realize camping in ~+20F with much longer lower 48 days is much different.
But there are very good reasons why lots of Canadians migrate themselves and their (somewhat cold capable) RVs to Mexico or the USA southern states in the winter if they are full timers.
Sorry for the lengthy post but the stories are true and the calculations correct.

Dr. Aarons,

A great writeup on your adventures in the extreme cold (that I referenced in part above)!!

And now ... going off topic regarding another ultimate RV'ing challenge ... in which neither more clothes nor nudity are a solution. What would you recommend for drycamping in above 100 degree F outside air temperatures?

The reason I ask is this: The DW and myself enjoy rockhounding using our small Class C motorhome as a base ... even if it takes us out into the U.S. version of The Far Side of Beyond. The good thing about doing this in the summer is the complete lack of any other people around. The bad thing about doing this is it's in the summer. Our worst case was way out there in the Texas Panhandle during August. We had to use both the rooftop A/C and built-in RV generator, plus the cab A/C with the engine idling - to keep from melting away after a few minutes outside. The complete serenity while walking around outside in lite clothing under umbrellas and cloudless blue skies was beyond priceless ... just us, the RV, and the Road Runners scampering about. ;)

Thanks. I do all subarctic RV trips in May-September. My long trips have been Europe-Siberia-Mongolia in summer, Australia all seasons (north in winter, south in summer). Next big, post Covid trip will be Southern Africa. All trips to places with water mainly in liquid state.

m37charlie wrote:
Winter camping:
My Unimog/Unicat camper has a 5kw /17000btu/h hydronic heater system just for the camper. And a separate 9kw for cab/engine and the camper can be sealed from the cab with a removable plate. I have figured out the effective thermal radiation 2 ways: by calculation (the walls and floor and roof are 0.44W/m2-degK, windows about 6 times that, vent cutouts are covered with insulation), and by comparing home power draw to average outside temperature, which I can follow on a daily basis. I currently live with only 3 cats and my daily routine is invariant since I put myself under house arrest March 8. In the winter I heat the camper with 2 thermostatically controlled Hornet 700w AC aircraft heaters hooked up via the camper to grid power. They are set at ~41F in the coolest areas, the average interior wall temperatures are 41-46F by IR measurements. The purpose is to avoid freezeups at all costs even though the camper is winterized.
The results are very close by the 2 methods: 30-33W/degC temperature gradient. Since the 2 heaters put out 1400w together, they can keep the camper comfortably above freezing down to about -38C or-36F. The diesel powered Webasto therefore could theoretically keep the interior at 77F down to -140F, assuming 80% efficiency. But, even Arctic diesel fuel freezes up at -50F. I have a 500w AC heater pad on the 40gal “day tank” (total capacity 162 gal) but it would be very hard to start the diesel generator at very low temperature. Even with a hair dryer or aircraft heater inside the housing. And if camping off the grid my house batteries hold only 10kwh (840ah). Solar panels are useless in an arctic or subarctic winter for obvious reasons (I have 650w nominal).
Let’s now talk about winter camping in cold subarctic places. In the summer of 75 I backpacked south to north across the Brooks Range to the Arctic coast. It was very pleasant except we got real hungry because we ran out of food early and subsisted on 40M&Ms a day each, plus blueberries and 1 ptarmigan that I shot through the neck with a 30-06. For at least 4 days.
In early February 78 I flew into Arctic Village as a newly minted MD on a medical field trip to the village clinic. The village is now practically embedded in ANWR. The local people (Athabaskans) were happy to see me and immediately took me on a snow machine trip 20 miles up and back up the East Fork of the Chandalar River. The still air temperature was -52F. I was dressed in bunny boots, multiple layers, gloves under giant beaver mittens, a marten hat and a huge down parka with a wolverine ruff. I rode standing on the back of a sled. It still felt chilly.
Winter of 79 or 80 I went fly-in caribou hunting on the Alaska Peninsula near Pilot Point. We camped in a summer type nylon backpacking tent for 2 nights at-25F. The nights were a bit chilly as well. We got 2 caribou however.
Spending time outdoors in near cryogenic temperatures especially when solar insolation is minimal (like around the solstice) isn’t fun except as a novelty. So even if one’s RV can theoretically “take it”, are you going to spend all the long nights inside and venture outdoors for 2 hours a day?
I realize camping in ~+20F with much longer lower 48 days is much different.
But there are very good reasons why lots of Canadians migrate themselves and their (somewhat cold capable) RVs to Mexico or the USA southern states in the winter if they are full timers.
Sorry for the lengthy post but the stories are true and the calculations correct.

Thank you and no thank you (lol) for making us envious of your charmed RVing life.

I am still thinking of RVing to visit all the national parks in Alaska.

And definitely it. won't be in a Unimog. I might have to wait very long to have the content provided with EV charging once I get my Cybertruck -- or just drop this dream Ring off my bucket list.

Anyway, excellent story and definitely NatGeo worthy.

M37Charlie,

My 256 watts of solar do about 225 watt-hours of charging on Dec 21 @ 50.448742, -104.508949 (Regina, Sk)

That is enough to keep up with self discharge.

Winter camping:
My Unimog/Unicat camper has a 5kw /17000btu/h hydronic heater system just for the camper. And a separate 9kw for cab/engine and the camper can be sealed from the cab with a removable plate. I have figured out the effective thermal radiation 2 ways: by calculation (the walls and floor and roof are 0.44W/m2-degK, windows about 6 times that, vent cutouts are covered with insulation), and by comparing home power draw to average outside temperature, which I can follow on a daily basis. I currently live with only 3 cats and my daily routine is invariant since I put myself under house arrest March 8. In the winter I heat the camper with 2 thermostatically controlled Hornet 700w AC aircraft heaters hooked up via the camper to grid power. They are set at ~41F in the coolest areas, the average interior wall temperatures are 41-46F by IR measurements. The purpose is to avoid freezeups at all costs even though the camper is winterized.
The results are very close by the 2 methods: 30-33W/degC temperature gradient. Since the 2 heaters put out 1400w together, they can keep the camper comfortably above freezing down to about -38C or-36F. The diesel powered Webasto therefore could theoretically keep the interior at 77F down to -140F, assuming 80% efficiency. But, even Arctic diesel fuel freezes up at -50F. I have a 500w AC heater pad on the 40gal “day tank” (total capacity 162 gal) but it would be very hard to start the diesel generator at very low temperature. Even with a hair dryer or aircraft heater inside the housing. And if camping off the grid my house batteries hold only 10kwh (840ah). Solar panels are useless in an arctic or subarctic winter for obvious reasons (I have 650w nominal).
Let’s now talk about winter camping in cold subarctic places. In the summer of 75 I backpacked south to north across the Brooks Range to the Arctic coast. It was very pleasant except we got real hungry because we ran out of food early and subsisted on 40M&Ms a day each, plus blueberries and 1 ptarmigan that I shot through the neck with a 30-06. For at least 4 days.
In early February 78 I flew into Arctic Village as a newly minted MD on a medical field trip to the village clinic. The village is now practically embedded in ANWR. The local people (Athabaskans) were happy to see me and immediately took me on a snow machine trip 20 miles up and back up the East Fork of the Chandalar River. The still air temperature was -52F. I was dressed in bunny boots, multiple layers, gloves under giant beaver mittens, a marten hat and a huge down parka with a wolverine ruff. I rode standing on the back of a sled. It still felt chilly.
Winter of 79 or 80 I went fly-in caribou hunting on the Alaska Peninsula near Pilot Point. We camped in a summer type nylon backpacking tent for 2 nights at-25F. The nights were a bit chilly as well. We got 2 caribou however.
Spending time outdoors in near cryogenic temperatures especially when solar insolation is minimal (like around the solstice) isn’t fun except as a novelty. So even if one’s RV can theoretically “take it”, are you going to spend all the long nights inside and venture outdoors for 2 hours a day?
I realize camping in ~+20F with much longer lower 48 days is much different.
But there are very good reasons why lots of Canadians migrate themselves and their (somewhat cold capable) RVs to Mexico or the USA southern states in the winter if they are full timers.
Sorry for the lengthy post but the stories are true and the calculations correct.

TwistedGray wrote:

TwistedGray wrote:

pnichols wrote:
our two large AGM batteries have no problem running the furnace for only 15-20 minutes, total, out of each hour at those inside and outside temperatures

Perhaps the key is a second battery. As I understand, the electric blower dragons out within a few short hours without connection to shore power or running the genny.

I'll quote myself : )

The 19G manual states:

HOW IT (FURNACE) OPERATES
Use the wall thermostat to turn the furnace on. Air is heated by burning propane. A blower using 12-volt power from the auxiliary battery circulates the hot air through the motorhome.

WARNING: If the auxiliary battery is not being charged via the chassis engine, a campground connection or the generator, the furnace blower will discharge it in two to three hours and then the furnace will shut off. If this happens, you may recharge the battery by running the chassis engine for about 45 minutes.

That would take a very small single battery in an 19G to only run it's furnace for only "two to three" hours ... plus remember that the furnace should/will not run continuously under anything but EXTREMELY COLD conditions.

Here again is my earlier answer to what you quoted for yourself above:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If the one battery is, say, a 100 amp hour battery and you start the evening and night with having, say, 80 amp hours of it's capacity left ... then you have about 40 amp hours max that you should run it down overnight.

If your furnace is sized right, and your coach interior is "made night-time small enough" by blocking off some sections, then the furnace might only run about 1/3 of the time each hour. If the furnace blower and it's control circuitry only consumes about 6 amps when the furnace is running, then each hour it would drain about 2 amp hours (1/3 of 6) from the battery.

If you run the furnace off the single battery for around 12 hours each evening and night, then 12 hours times 2 amps per hour means that you've used 24 amp hours out of the battery, come morning (not counting some other real low amperage draws from the battery during that time).

Since you had about 40 usable amp hours in the battery at the beginning of the evening ... you should make it through the night on the single battey.

The above analysis assumes that you start out with a battery in good condition and bring the battery back up to full capacity before each night - using some combination of solar plus generator or solar plus engine idling.

The most worry-free solution for cold weather drycamping is to have as much good RV battery capacity on board as you can fit and afford. I consider our two 12V Group 31 deep cycle 115 amp hours each AGM batteries (for a total of 230 amp hours) as about the minimum capacity for my particular piece of mind. When drycamping I charge them up to around 90% about every other day using one of my five different non-solar ways to charge them.

I recently read everything these folks wrote about winter drycamping in their 5'er, which also applies to motorhomes, and they have some excellent tips on how to do it (be sure to read their other cold weather camping articles high-lighted in blue):

https://roadslesstraveled.us/how-to-stay-warm-in-an-rv-survival-tips-for-winter-rving/