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az99's avatar
az99
Explorer
Feb 09, 2014

More OTA Antenna Questions

Since there have been several OTA antenna discussions lately I decided to play around with it at home since it got up to a balmy 25º. I am trying to get everything ready so I can record OTA network programs while in the MH. I got an iView digital converter and an AM21 for the sat but had no OTA antenna here at home to test either new piece. Unfortunately I was dumb enough to buy the chinese piece of junk antenna from fleabay mentioned in another thread. Knowing I got many more channels when the MH antenna was used I decided to take my batwing with wingman off the MH and try it mounted up high on the house where I had the other one. I got far more channels than when mounted on the MH because it was about 20' higher. I was surprised and impressed by the performance. In fact I got so many channels that I don't get as locals from DTV I decided I would get an antenna for the house.

Could any of you antenna experts please recommend an outdoor UHF only and preferably flat antenna that would give equal performance to the Winegard batwing from the MH for mounting on the house? I won't need a rotor. I am 50+ miles from the stations,at higher elevation but with a lot of trees and in a valley if any of that matters.
Thanx
  • We are about 40 miles out from the broadcast antennas but have some hills and forests between there and home; when the stations started broadcasting HDTV, I changed my old antenna out for this old-design CM UHF only:



    This would work for you - it was an 80 mile range. It worked perfect for us until... channels 8, 10 and 12 moved back to the upper VHF frequencies... so I had to pull it and install a new combo antenna:




    While I was at it, I installed the new antenna on a 30' home-made mast. It has stood up to everything mother nature has thrown at it so far. The ugly part of HDTV, when we have any amount of rain or we have heavy fog, channel 2 disappears and 6 is soon to follow. Those two are in the high UHF frequencies:

    KATUDT - ABC
    channel 2.1
    UHF Frequency 43

    KOINDT - CBS
    Channel 6.1, 6.2, 6.3
    UHF Frequency 40

    KGWDT - NBC
    Channel 8.1, 8.2, 8.3
    VHF Frequency 8

    KOPBDT - PBS
    Channel 10.1, 10.2, 10.3
    VHF Frequency 10

    KPTVDT - Fox
    Channel 12.1
    VHF Frequency 12

    Just showing what I have & had... I understand the OP's desire for UHF only.
  • Radio Shack

    on sale all month - MNTundraRet recommended amp

    I am tempted to get one and build up the nerve to cut cable. It works miracles on the amplified head of batwing/wingman - pulls in stations from 70+ miles
  • wa8yxm's avatar
    wa8yxm
    Explorer III
    Chris I see most of the posts do that. I think one or two commented the Batwing is best for an RV (I agree) but they also addressed a house.

    Basically, for a house, unless you are in an "A" footprint (closest ring to the station) you want the biggest baddest hunk of metal your tower/support can hold up.

    With a decent antanna costing what some folks pay in 1-2 months for Sat TV (120 dollar antenna I linked to is 2 months of Dish pay as you go). and mounting costing about another month to like 5 or 6 months depending on how high you put it up. A good OTA can pay for itself in less than a year.
  • SCVJeff wrote:
    It will affect it at UHF, but not badly. I'd go with the 8 bay if VHF is not a concern. It's been the gold standard for UHF since the early 50's.


    Actually that is not true at all.

    While stacked bowties have been out since the 50s they are NOT the "gold standard" of antennas.

    They have been popular since they are cheap and easy to build and cheap to sell. It takes very little to make a simple stacked bowtie but Yagis on the other had require a lot of math and a lot of design work to make them work correctly.

    The REAL gold standard in UHF is YAGI antennas which can easily reach gains over 16 DB in one antenna.

    Most combo VHF/UHF antennas are built using YAGI designs and can achieve higher front to back and even side rejection of noise.

    Hopefully these comparisons will help a bit..

    HD8200U VHF/UHF
    Winegard HD8200U
    $126

    Turning Radius: 101 inches
    69 Active Elements: 34 VHF and 35 UHF
    Boom Length: 168. 25 inches
    Estimated range 100+ miles VHF, 60+ miles UHF
    Technical Information - Gain - 14.2 dBi;
    Gain over a dipole is 5 DB (channel 2 RF)-6DB (channel 6 RF), 10.4 DB (Channel 7 RF)-12.4 DB (channel 13 RF), 14 DB (channel 14 RF- Channel 69 RF)


    HD7694P VHF/UHF

    Winegard HD7694P High Definition VHF/UHF Antenna
    $59
    Hi Vhf/Uhf Antenna Optimized For Channels 7-69
    Range Up To 30 Miles
    Physical Characteristics - Form Factor – Yagi
    Additional Information - UHF Elements: 17 VHF Elements: 11
    Boom Length: 65 inches
    Turning Radius: 46. 25 inches

    Gain over a dipole is 8.3 DB (channel7 RF), 10.7DB ( Channel 50 RF), 9.7 DB (channel 69 RF)
    Front to back gain is low of 13 DB to high of 20DB depending on frequency


    Winegard HD-1080 2-Bay Bowtie UHF and High Band VHF TV Antenna (HD-1080)

    Range 0 - 30 miles
    Gain over a dipole -4.7DB (channel7 RF), -4.6DB (Channel 13 RF), +3.2 (channel 14 RF)- +11.8 (channel 38 RF)
    Front to back 0DB RF Channel 7-13, 4.5DB - 10DB RF channels 14-38

    Winegard HD 4400 4-Bay UHF Prostar 1000 High Definition TV Antenna (HD-4400)

    Four bay bow-tie UHF antenna
    Channels 14 through 69
    Gain over a dipole 9 DB (RF channel 14) – 11.6 DB (RF channel 69)
    Front to back 17 DB (RF channel 14) – 9 DB (RF channel 69)

    Winegard HD-8800 (8 bay bowtie)
    Channels 14 through 69
    Max miles rating 60??
    10.7 DB (RF 14)- 12.5 DB (RF 69)

    HD9032 UHF ONLY YAGI
    $54

    HD9032 (UHF ONLY YAGI)
    Max miles rating 65
    Gain 14.9 DB (RF14), 16.3 DB (RF 32), 11.5 DB (RF69)
    Front to back 14 DB-20DB


    Winegard Solid Signal HD-BLADE Indoor Digital Flat Indoor TV Antenna (HDBLADE)

    Mounts on the wall, in a window, or layed flat.
    Latest technology allows silver elements to be printed onto a thin plastic sheet, giving you the strength of a bow-tie antenna squished in a flat easy to mount package
    Built for high performance on High-VHF and UHF frequencies
    Best suited for reception up to 25 miles from the television broadcast tower. Based on terrain and obstructions, antenna performance may vary.
    NO DB gain specs since this is a dipole which is ZERO GAIN.

    Winegard SS-3000 Indoor DTV/HDTV Antenna

    Response throughout VHF/UHF bandpass
    Receives signals up to 20 miles from the transmit source
    NO antenna gain listed since this is a dipole which is ZERO GAIN
    Preamp has 11 DB of gain with 4.5DB NOISE figure (amp will amplify the incoming noise with the signal PLUS add the 4.5 DB of noise that it generates so it works only with strong local stations only).



    So, looking at the above specs even IF you don’t “care” about VHF you SHOULD at least consider buying a COMBO VHF/UHF antenna since the larger ones OUT PERFORM ANY 4 or 8 bay UHF Bowtie antennas (even the smaller HD7694P performs equal to a 4 bay bowtie) .

    YES, combo antennas are bigger and more expensive but they just plain work better than those bowties or even the stick on flat antennas (I am using a 15ft long combo which gets stations of 50-80+ miles easily).

    Bigger antennas FOCUS the “gain” to one direction which improves the front gain while reducing the signals (and noise) from the sides and back of the antenna. This is extremely important with the weak digital broadcast signals (noise affects digital broadcasts MORE than the old analog).

    To quickly recap the specs..

    4 bay Bowtie UHF 9DB -11DB
    8 bay Bowtie UHF 10.7DB- 12.5 DB

    HD8200U VHF/UHF Combo
    12DB VHF, 14 DB UHF

    If you really have your heart set on UHF only then I would recommend a YAGI type of UHF antenna

    HD9032 (UHF ONLY YAGI)
    Gain up to 16.3 DB!

    As with any high gain antennas you will need an antenna rotor to catch all stations in your area (unless you are near an ocean).

    Higher mounting is better, UHF travels “line of sight” which in a nutshell means it does not bend with the Earths curvature. Instead UHF travels in a straight line right out into space as the earth bends..

    An antenna with good forward (HIGH) gain plus a good preamp and antenna rotor and you should be set…

    The high gain antenna gives your preamp a much larger signal to amplify which means the noise that comes along with the signal does not swamp out what you are trying to get.

    To put it bluntly small garbage in = LARGE GARBAGE OUT when amplifying anything...
  • In point to point communications you are correct. But (gains not withstanding, and that is not the issue here) I have seen many many many situations where the bowtie outperforms a yaggi simply because it obviously has a much wider capture area and doesn't wind up with a null on one station while the rest are fine. And you know the only way to fix that..

    There are plenty of cheap yaggis out there as well, but when you are trying to pick up several, possibly dozens of transmitters from the same site, the bowtie is a better antenna.

    BTW- When the transition happened a few years ago, we bought bowties, yaggi's, 'panel' antennas, pulled an RV omni out of the junk pile, and went to the roof with an analyzer. When moving the antennas around simulating various mounting points, the bowtie won. Wasn't the strongest, but was the most consistent.

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