Wingman... Removed.

My experience with the wingman is I get much better UHF reception

BurbMan wrote:
RK, thanks for clarifying, I always learn a lot from this forum. I guess what I meant to say is that the newer antennae have better UHF capabilities to better pull in digital signals and therefore aren't helped by a Wingman, but doesn't sound like that would be right either.

In my experience digital signals can be weak and result in some pixellation at the fringe of the signal instead of the old VHF snow. That zone is a lot narrower than VHF, but I wouldn't say the reception graph is a right angle, but I'll bet's it's 85*.

While we're at it, Winegard does advertise their Rayzar as an HD antenna.

a lot of places advertise their antennas as "HD ready", "digital", etc. pure snake oil. as for the graph, the "fringe" area will of course vary from TV to TV but yes, it won't be an exact right angle but i'll bet it'll be a lot closer than 85-degrees. but it's a distinction without a difference. glad I could help clarify.

The Wingman makes your antenna more directional hence the gain; but at the same time that means that aiming is more critical as it has a narrower"look angle".

RK, thanks for clarifying, I always learn a lot from this forum. I guess what I meant to say is that the newer antennae have better UHF capabilities to better pull in digital signals and therefore aren't helped by a Wingman, but doesn't sound like that would be right either.

In my experience digital signals can be weak and result in some pixellation at the fringe of the signal instead of the old VHF snow. That zone is a lot narrower than VHF, but I wouldn't say the reception graph is a right angle, but I'll bet's it's 85*.

While we're at it, Winegard does advertise their Rayzar as an HD antenna.

Ues and no.. It all depends on where you are parked and where the towers are. I will explain.

Take a necklace chain,, and a state map, NOw, understand this will not be to Scale, it is representive only.

Put a thumb tack in the map and arrange the chain around it,in a circle, so the tac is in the center of the circle.

This represents the pattern of the Winegard Roadstar omni-directional antenna.

Now, put a craft stick under the thumb tac, Arrainge the necklace in an oval, about 3 to one ratio with the short axis lying along the craft stick.

This is the pattern of the Batwing, sans Wingman.. You will notice the ends of the pattern are much farther than they were,, But the sides are reduced so a station "off the beam" (The end of the craft stick) that used to be in the circle may now be outside it.. But a staion off the bow, or stern (Perpenduclar to the craft stick) would now be in range.

Now break a 2nd craft stick in half and put the half perpenduclar to the original at the center point (Thumb tac)

Pull the chain into an egg shape.. Retain teh short radius around the bottom but now you notice the "main lobe" (the long axis) is much longer (1.4 in actual terms, but on the necklace it won't be as long) again, stations that used to be inside drop out, but you can see much farther.

Turning the antenna as you change channels will bring in the missing ones (At the cost of others) this is OK if you use one TV.

This is basic antenna theory.. I have used it to locate towers in the past (Direction finding) even on a hand held AM radio it works that way.

This is why I'm such a fan of the Fully Expanded Batwing... It has RANGE.

I can live with re-aiming for different stations.

Oh, and where I'm going tomorrow.. Turns out the stations are either side of me, So the wingman will let me see one way (Thankfully all the major networks lie in that directrion) but only VHF stations to the other side.

BurbMan wrote:
...We needed the Wingman to help our antenna receive more digital signals. Your RV is a lot newer and the Winegard unit that came OEM probably has digital capabilities built in already, so the Wingman may have actually hampered it. From what I have read, digital signals are not as directional as the old analog signals, so we do a lot less turning of the antenna that we had to prior to the Wingman. We also get much better reception with our new TVs that have digital tuners built in.

there is no such thing as a digital antenna. the frequencies being used by TV broadcasters are the same as those used for analog transmissions. the TV receiver, not the antenna, is what decodes or displays the picture.

a digital signal is no more or no less directional than an analog signal. some TV signals may be intentionally directed in a less-than-Omni-directional pattern. this could be to protect another nearby broadcaster, to service a particular population group, etc. but with everything else being equal a UHF signal will generally not travel as far as a VHF signal. and digital signals are either there or not. in the old analog days a picture would get progressively weaker the farther away you were from the transmission point until it just faded away. we called this 'snow' as in a snowy picture. think of a gently curving graph.

a digital signal is made up of zeros and ones. if the signal is there you'll get a picture, if not you won't. no snow. no weakness. just nothing. the graph would look like a sharp right angle.

the typical RV antenna is located what, 12-15 feet off the ground? and we're frequently out in the boonies, with lots of terrain obstructions (trees, hills, mountains, etc). shorter ranges (UHF), a signal that does not fade, antennas close to the ground and ground obstacles. it's no wonder RVers have trouble receiving a watchable TV signal.

and while we're at it just like there is also no such thing as a digital antenna there is also no such thing as a high-definition antenna or an antenna "optimized" for high-def. both are functions of the receiver in the TV.

rk911 wrote:
not sure why your experience with the wingman was as you described.
when you removed the wingman and got all of the previously unseen channels, was that during a trip (wingman on, 3-5 channels, wingman off, 15-18 channels during the same trip) or between trips? same campground, campsite, weather, etc? worst case the wingman should have no effect...I don't see how it could make things worse.

I am also baffled at this. In my experience the Wingman improved my reception although that said, I did not compare with / without the Wingman while camped at the same campsite and under the same conditions.

I did that with the Winegard Sensar IV + Wingman and the Jack Replacement Head - same campground, before and after installation of the Jack head. No huge difference one way or the other. Will try the Jack on a few more trips before I switch back (if it does not perform as well as they claim it does. Swapping the heads is quick and easy.

HappyKayakers wrote:
I use a Jack antenna so I don't have a dog in this fight but I thought the Wingman addon only worked on Winegard antennas. Not all batwings are Winegards. Are you certain you have a Winegard? Forest River website didn't specify what type of antenna was on the TT.

Yes, it is a Sensar III I believe.

rk911 wrote:

the winegard batwing antenna is not an Omni-directional antenna. Understood.

not sure why your experience with the wingman was as you described.
when you removed the wingman and got all of the previously unseen channels, was that during a trip (wingman on, 3-5 channels, wingman off, 15-18 channels during the same trip) or between trips? same campground, campsite, weather, etc? worst case the wingman should have no effect...I don't see how it could make things worse.

Not sure why either. Same trip, same location, as a matter of fact, channel scans about 20 minutes apart.

stahrmcgee wrote:
There was a lot of bragging going on about the Wingman at the campsites I was staying at and when we got the new camper, we got one and after a fer camps we installed it. I pulled it off after the 2nd camp(on a 5 camp run) and tried to draw in the channels again. Short answer on my experience: Ours was better without the Wingman. With it on, we got 3-5 channels of moderate signal quality. Without it, we got between 15-18 channels that were all watchable. So. I did a little reading, yes, I should have prior, but I didn't, and I found out that it makes the antennae directional instead of how it is out right off the lot.

Has anyone else had the same experience?

the winegard batwing antenna is not an Omni-directional antenna. if it were you wouldn't have to twist it in order to find a watchable signal. the "wings" of the antenna receive VHF signals (basically channels transmitting on the frequencies previously assigned to TV channels 2-13). the center "head" of the antenna receives UHF signals (basically channels transmitting on the frequencies previously assigned to TV channels 14 and up).

the wingman is a small yagi antenna that clips to the center head which gathers and directs UHF signals to the UHF receiver. many-to-most of the TV stations that were broadcasting in the VHF portion of the band switched to UHF frequencies after the switch to digital. everything else being equal a UHF signal will not travel as far compared to a VHF signal. the wingman is more efficient at detecting and gathering UHF signals which means the UHF receiver has more to work with.

not sure why your experience with the wingman was as you described.
when you removed the wingman and got all of the previously unseen channels, was that during a trip (wingman on, 3-5 channels, wingman off, 15-18 channels during the same trip) or between trips? same campground, campsite, weather, etc? worst case the wingman should have no effect...I don't see how it could make things worse.