Forum Discussion

audiodane's avatar
audiodane
Explorer
Oct 27, 2018

Getting Close! KZ Sportsmen vs Spree?

I figured this was a different enough topic to start a new thread to keep things better organized..

I've learned SO much here and elsewhere in the past few weeks. Thank you to everyone who's answered my newbie questions.

Quick background/summary:
Northwood and OutdoorsRV are just not available in my area (southeast).. Grand Design looks fantastic but the "oldest" Imagine I've seen is 2016, so too new for my wallet. That leaves KZ and Outback. KZ seems to have a few more choices. Specifically looking between about 2010 and 2013, before they were bought by Thor (2014). This keeps the cost of our first purchase low, and hopefully in a few years when we're ready to "step up" we can move to a 2016-2017 Grand Design Imagine that should hopefully be in our price point by then. :)

Narrowing the KZ model selection:
I've looked through all the TT brochures for those four model years, and am seeing a few models bounce between the Spree and Sportsmen lines (e.g. the 240BH was Sportsmen in 2010 but Spree 2011-2013). But, I've not had much luck attempting to determine what the "difference" is between these two lines. I'm sure they fill distinct purposes, but their offerings are heavily overlapped.

We're looking in the range of 5500lbs unloaded, with at least 1000lbs CCC If they're rated more, great! But we plan to only load up to around 6500lbs for towing.. There are some great offerings in this range, though (240BH, 242BH, 250BH, 260BH, 280BH, 300BH, 289KS, 314BH, etc).. All of these are also in the range of 28' to 33' total length. The shorter the better, but W.A.F. may sway me towards the 30-33' range. I'm not really looking at anything longer than 33' though (which is made easier by sticking to the dry weights that I listed above).

Questions:

1) Can anyone help me understand the differences between these two KZ lines (Sportsmen and Spree)?

2) Is there anything in particular about 2010-2013 model year Sportsmen and/or Spree that I specifically should be aware of? I've been reading many good things (and of course as expected a few bad things) about these models and years.

3) I have heard to stay older than 2014 models because they were bought by Thor in 2014, but I'm curious if that can make a big difference in the same year of the acquisition (April 2014). I do notice a significant change in their brochures starting with 2014. I went ahead and included 2014 in my search for now, but I'm hoping to get some feedback on those model years in general also.

We are so excited to finally be moving towards our first purchase (thank goodness we passed on that PopUp six months ago and traded up our Odyssey for an Expedition EL!), and I look forward to continuing to learn more and hopefully someday be able to repay the favor by helping newbies to come!

cheers,
..dane
  • CharlesinGA's avatar
    CharlesinGA
    Explorer
    Nov 04, 2018
    Be mindful of the length of the trailer you select and the problems being "too long" can cause. The longer a trailer, the more sway issues you can expect.

    I have read several places on different discussion forums of two different rules of thumb to consider. (hope I get these right)

    1) A wheelbase of up to 113 inches is good for a trailer length of no more than 20 ft. for every additional 4 inches of wheelbase, you can add a foot of trailer length.

    2) The distance from the ball to the centerline of the back most axle of the trailer should not be more than twice the wheelbase of the tow vehicle.

    Pay close attention to where the tanks are located, especially the fresh water tank. Too far aft and you may have to tow with the FW tank empty and fill at or near your destination. Some trailers are poorly configured and much consideration should be given to tongue weight and making sure you will have enough of it.

    Charles
  • audiodane's avatar
    audiodane
    Explorer
    Nov 01, 2018
    Lynnmor wrote:
    1) Generally speaking, the Spree has fiberglass sandwich type sidewall construction with just a couple of aluminum studs, and the Sportsman is stick & tin sidewalls with aluminum siding. The Spree is regarded as an upgrade from the Sportsman.

    2) Some models have welded three piece I-beam main frame rails that are extremely weak, look closely to see if they are of this construction and do not buy if it is. The model years you are considering lose much of the water from the fresh water tank while driving.

    3) I think just recently that Thor is having a negative effect on the design and the Spree line is currently not on the website.

    Just so you know, my purchase of one of these products was by far the worst purchase decision of my life. PM me if you want details.


    Thanks @Lynnmor! I'll PM you for more information. Though, it seems there is also wide variation even within a "reputable brand." :( I am currently trying to stick with used models prior to 2014 for both cost and pre-Thor aquisition..


    Lwiddis wrote:
    One thousand pounds of CCC isn’t much. Fifty gallons of water will eat 410 pounds of your 6500 pounds of imposed max weight. My TT cargo/water totals 1400 pounds when the DW doesn’t go.


    @Lwiddis, Agreed, the imposed 6500lb limit is...limiting. But necessary. I imagine our first year's trips will only be to places with hookups and dump stations anyway. I don't have any plans to travel "full" for a while. Eventually, yes. But we may decide to change TT's or even TV's by then. Baby steps don't scare me..

    myredracer wrote:
    Ralph Cramden wrote:

    Nothing wrong with a machine welded beam thats engineered and sized correctly.
    We had a previous TT with one of the frames with the 3-piece welded I-beams. It was so weak and poorly manufactured that the RV manufacturer took it back. We took it into a gov't certified frame & axle shop and they said it was the worst frame they'd ever seen (including substandard welds) and that no amount of remedial work could bring it up to the level it should be. It really flexed like crazy. Still, the RV manufacturer continued to use the exact same frame on their model lines despite knowing how poor they are. All 4 spring hangers were bent to one side by 1/2"+. When I looked at the other TTs on the dealer's lot, they all had the same bent spring hangers. Poor QC at the manufacturer (ie., Lippert)...

    I once saw a photo of a KZ TT where the frame folded like a pretzel at the axle location and the rear end was dragging on the ground. That was like 7-8 years ago and have not been able to find the photos since. It would have had a 3-piece welded beam.

    I would never ever buy a TT with one of the welded up I-beams again. Our more common one-piece rolled beam has performed well. I've also seen the identical 3-piece beam on a few other makes & models and would not go near one again. A problem with TTs IMO is the lack of any codes/standards & inspections and a frame manufacturer can build them however they want, and they do. I'm aware of all the issues Lynnmor has had with his frame and agree 100% with what he says about the 3-welded beams.

    On Spree vs Sportsman, I would add that even though the Spree is their upscale line of TTs, don't expect the build quality to be any better. After 5 seasons, I have still been finding things that need fixing due to poor workmanship. Kz is pretty much the same as any other TT manufacturer in Indiana and nothing in my mind stands out to choose KZ over another.

    Oh, and then there was all the trouble we had with the dealer including their inability to fix things. I would suggest you look into how good the dealer is as well.

    Oddly, I don't see the Spree line on KZ's website either. The "Connect" line was pretty much the same TT as the Spree but with less features. I always wondered why they sold two TT lines that were so similar. Maybe for 2019 they've dropped the Spree line?

    If we were to ever buy another TT, the first choice would be an OutdoorsRV unit. A BAL frame is used on a few brands/models such as Jayco and it might be worth looking at Jayco for that reason.


    Thanks @myredracer, though I don't think your comments are entirely useful, but that's not necessarily your fault. I don't know the first thing about frames and ibeams and types of welds and gussets.. Is there some list that details which brands/models use which kinds of frames? (I kinda doubt it...) I feel like I'm somewhat limited, as @Lwiddis mentioned, by my 6500lb loaded weight.

    I can't afford an OutdoorsRV at this time, but it is on my list of future upgrades. :) And the two other brands that top my list aren't readily available this side of the Rockies, much less the Mississippi.

    So, once again, baby steps. We're looking to stay older to save costs and "get into" the TT lifestyle. In a few years, we'll have learned more than I can learn from staying up to 2am nightly on forums, have made many memories with the kids before they move out, and hopefully by then been able to move up to a used OutdoorsRV model.

    My current home theater rig has taken me over 25yrs of tweaking and upgrading. I have no doubts the TT life will be a similar journey.

    cheers,
    ..dane
  • myredracer's avatar
    myredracer
    Explorer II
    Nov 01, 2018
    Ralph Cramden wrote:

    Nothing wrong with a machine welded beam thats engineered and sized correctly.
    We had a previous TT with one of the frames with the 3-piece welded I-beams. It was so weak and poorly manufactured that the RV manufacturer took it back. We took it into a gov't certified frame & axle shop and they said it was the worst frame they'd ever seen (including substandard welds) and that no amount of remedial work could bring it up to the level it should be. It really flexed like crazy. Still, the RV manufacturer continued to use the exact same frame on their model lines despite knowing how poor they are. All 4 spring hangers were bent to one side by 1/2"+. When I looked at the other TTs on the dealer's lot, they all had the same bent spring hangers. Poor QC at the manufacturer (ie., Lippert)...

    I once saw a photo of a KZ TT where the frame folded like a pretzel at the axle location and the rear end was dragging on the ground. That was like 7-8 years ago and have not been able to find the photos since. It would have had a 3-piece welded beam.

    I would never ever buy a TT with one of the welded up I-beams again. Our more common one-piece rolled beam has performed well. I've also seen the identical 3-piece beam on a few other makes & models and would not go near one again. A problem with TTs IMO is the lack of any codes/standards & inspections and a frame manufacturer can build them however they want, and they do. I'm aware of all the issues Lynnmor has had with his frame and agree 100% with what he says about the 3-welded beams.

    On Spree vs Sportsman, I would add that even though the Spree is their upscale line of TTs, don't expect the build quality to be any better. After 5 seasons, I have still been finding things that need fixing due to poor workmanship. Kz is pretty much the same as any other TT manufacturer in Indiana and nothing in my mind stands out to choose KZ over another.

    Oh, and then there was all the trouble we had with the dealer including their inability to fix things. I would suggest you look into how good the dealer is as well.

    Oddly, I don't see the Spree line on KZ's website either. The "Connect" line was pretty much the same TT as the Spree but with less features. I always wondered why they sold two TT lines that were so similar. Maybe for 2019 they've dropped the Spree line?

    If we were to ever buy another TT, the first choice would be an OutdoorsRV unit. A BAL frame is used on a few brands/models such as Jayco and it might be worth looking at Jayco for that reason.
  • Ralph_Cramden's avatar
    Ralph_Cramden
    Explorer II
    Oct 29, 2018
    Lynnmor wrote:
    Just one example of frame issues:



    Yes it is but what caused it? The fact that its a welded beam or was the trailer rear ended by a semi, jacked two feet in the air with the stabs, or fishtailed sideways into a curb, maybe was pulling a pivot wheel trailer? Is that a picture from a KZ product, or culled off the net?

    The only sure thing is if it was made, some dumoss is sure to come along and find a way to **** it up somehow, and usually it will not in any way be their fault lol.

    Sure can tell from the outrigger and weld at the gusset its LCI.
  • Ralph_Cramden's avatar
    Ralph_Cramden
    Explorer II
    Oct 27, 2018
    Lynnmor wrote:
    1) Generally speaking

    2) Some models have welded three piece I-beam main frame rails that are extremely weak, look closely to see if they are of this construction and do not buy if it is.



    That statement generally takes around 95% of everything off the table except for only the largest TTs and bumper pull THs, and a few select brands or trailers made prior to the late 80's. Nothing wrong with a machine welded beam thats engineered and sized correctly. A rolled beam is extremely weak if used incorrectly which is why a W44x335 might be used on a small bridge opposed to a W4x13.

    With frames since Lippert became the major player, I would not worry about the machine welded main rail as much as I would the manual welds on all the other connections, and the size of the main rail as far as is it engineered to the correct size and gauge. An easy way to tell is look at the suspension attachment area. If they add tubes and a lot of gussets in those areas, that can be a sign of an undersized main rail.

    I have had 3 different trailers with welded beams and no problems with any of them. Our current Rockwood has welded rails and they only have a 5-1/2" web with 2-1/2" flange. I questioned it until I looked at older models. They have used the same design for at least 10 years and I've only seen a few failures. Those were usually at the A frame attachment and most likely were due to owner abuse such as overloading, or bad welds in other areas done manually by Lippert.
  • Lwiddis's avatar
    Lwiddis
    Explorer II
    Oct 27, 2018
    One thousand pounds of CCC isn’t much. Fifty gallons of water will eat 410 pounds of your 6500 pounds of imposed max weight. My TT cargo/water totals 1400 pounds when the DW doesn’t go.

    Good looking TT, Soundguy.
  • SoundGuy's avatar
    SoundGuy
    Explorer
    Oct 27, 2018
    Our 2008 K-Z Spree 240BH-LX was the last year this model was produced as a non-slide, 2009 and all subsequent years it was longer (by 18") and heavier (by ~ 500 lbs) and became the 240BHS. It was an unusual design, with two HUGE bunk beds oriented laterally across the width of the trailer at the rear and a third smaller bunk bed set along the curb side wall at the rear.





    Certainly in those years the Spree with aluminum superstructure, fiberglass walls, and TPO roof membrane was considered a significant step up from the Sportsmen line which was stick & tin with an EPDM roof membrane. Friends of ours later owned a 2011 240BHS and to this day insist it was the best of the 8 different trailers they've owned over the years. We only sold ours after 6 yrs because our boys no longer camped with us but in retrospect we should have kept it and just used the bunk beds for occasional guests. The only thing I really didn't like at all about our Spree was the power Carefree of Colorado awning that had little tilt and would dump water all over us - I had the dealer swap it out for a good ol' manual Dometic 8500 which would tilt way down and could be used in any rainstorm.







    JMO but if this triple bunk bed design appeals I'd be looking for a 2008 or earlier 240BH or if you insist on a slide then a 2009 or newer 240BHS. :B
  • Lynnmor's avatar
    Lynnmor
    Explorer
    Oct 27, 2018
    1) Generally speaking, the Spree has fiberglass sandwich type sidewall construction with just a couple of aluminum studs, and the Sportsman is stick & tin sidewalls with aluminum siding. The Spree is regarded as an upgrade from the Sportsman.

    2) Some models have welded three piece I-beam main frame rails that are extremely weak, look closely to see if they are of this construction and do not buy if it is. The model years you are considering lose much of the water from the fresh water tank while driving.

    3) I think just recently that Thor is having a negative effect on the design and the Spree line is currently not on the website.

    Just so you know, my purchase of one of these products was by far the worst purchase decision of my life. PM me if you want details.

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