Got Caught By a Red Light Camera?

scootsk wrote:
I realize this thread is about red light cameras but it seems to have taken another direction. On Long Island, Nassau County implemented a school spped zone camera program. When it was introduced the politicians taunted it as a way to close a 30 million dollar budget gap. After a few complained that they shouldn't put cameras in school zones as "money makers". The powers then changed their tune and said the camera were for safety. Lol. Fast forward five months, surrounded by way too much controversy, the program was ended. But here are some raw facts: the cameras were set to issue a ticket to those that exceeded the posted school speed limit by 9 mph. So math say you get a ticket when traveling 29 in a 20 mph zone, sounds reasonable. The program issued over 400,000 tickets from September to late November to the tune of $31 million. I don't know but those numbers do indicate a tremendous problem with speeders in school zones, imo.

The numbers DO NOT indicate a problem with speeders.

The numbers indicate an incorrectly set speed limit. It may suprise you but traffic engineers have found that drivers are actually very good at determining the safe speed for a roadway. School speed limits are notoriously bad at getting it right. I've yet to see a speed limit under 25mph that is appropriate. The problem is someone gets up and says "what about the safety of the kids" and then logic goes out the window. Some of the issue is legislative in nature, some locals have mandatory speeds and in others the school is allowed to demand a paticular speed. Of course no one wants to be the one who said to heck with the kids safety because that one time you do, thats when a fast car wil hit a kid (even though it is not a systematic issue)

Sprink-Fitter wrote:

dons2346 wrote:
Well, if you are a South Dakota resident and have SD plates, worry no more. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/apr/3/editorial-three-cheers-for-south-dakota/

The article talks about speed cameras, not red light cameras.

Indeed it does - the thread title is a bit misleading......
of course *if* you read the article......:)

However, there is a "duh" factor here/there....
Replacing the SPEED *CAMERAS* with a *real* cop won't save the SD residents -
the LEO won't need to ask SD DMV for anything!..:S

All the info is available electronically - and the LEO also has the vehicle operator's DL in hand!

False "security" by the SD gov:
Speeder doesn't pay - cite goes to warrant.
"Next time" the driver is stopped, he/she will go to the grey bar.
Plus - *any* other traffic stop *anywhere* may show the outstanding warrant.
Can you say, "No bueno".

BTW - the well posted towing speed limit in CA is 55mph.
Entering from AZ, OR, or NV - which have a higher limit for same, the CHP will be happy to welcome the visitor with a written "greeting"..:W
(NO speed cameras - so some may get a free ride.....for a while).

.

2oldman wrote:
I've gotten a ticket for a rolling stop at a right-on-red in Wenatchee WA. I was guilty so I paid it.

valhalla360 wrote:
The more important issue is are the speed limits and signal timings set correctly.I'm a traffic engineer and set both (I haven't done cameras as the states I typicaly work in don't allow them).

A little off topic, but I thought you might have an opinion on this:

Traffic lights are the great guessing game of driving, and they shouldn't be. The worst case is on freeways with lights, like in Southern CA on the 86 freeway. And those stupid flashing amber lights a few hundred feet ahead of the signal..? ..worthless because they flash ALL the time. One only has to look down at the skid marks on the pavement to know how dangerous it is.

What would be the feasibility of having wifi devices in signal boxes to tell drivers with receivers how long that green is going to be? It would be a huge help to truckers, and those of us who tow heavy rigs. I doubt the amber is timed to how long it takes a big rig to stop.

95% of advance signal ahead flashers are a waste of money and more importantly, they undermine thier value in the 5% of locations where they are of benefit.

As far as advance notice devices, a few thoughts:

The assumed deceleration rate is typically assumed to be 10ft/sec2. If your vehicle can't slow that quickly, you have a brake problem...and there is a perception reaction time built into the formula. Even trucks and RV's should be able to double that deceleration rate without it being a panick stop. So, the need for more braking distance for large vehicles is already accounted for. See the link below for a detailed explaination of the method used in Michigan(page 26 & most other areas follow a similar approach).

You can set up the flasher to come on just before the signal is about to change but in most cases, this results in drivers speeding up. We use these occassionaly but usually where there is limited visibility at a signal (ie: a sharp turn and then you are on top of the signal) The new systems (discussed below) will have to sort thru this issue anew.

As far as wifi, no it won't be wifi. The near future is Vehicle to Infrastructure (V2I) using DSRC radios feeding SPaT data. It's an independent radio system with dedicated bandwidth set aside for transporation systems. One of the functions (among many) is SPaT (Signal Phase and Timing). An output for the signal controller is sent via radio. Included is a geographic map of the intersection including all lanes, what movements are allowed in each lane and which signal phases are associated with those lanes. The second part is the timing data, what is sent out is the current status of each phase, the next status for that phase and how long before the change. With adaptive systems, this is more challenging than you might think, since the controller often doesn't know what phase will be on in 15 seconds (there is a solution but it gets a little complicated). Now once the car recives the data, there is a high definition GPS that can determine which lane the car is in along with it's speed and direction. At that point, the onboard system can calculate when the car will arrive. The way it's set up now, it's just data sent out. Manufacturers both original and after market will take the data and develop applications. That can vary from a buzzer or light that goes off if you are in danger of running a red light to ultimately hitting the brakes for you. (This is also tied to V2V systems on the same radio network where the cars around you tell your car where they are and what they are doing). I believe Cadilac is the first company to announce they will be offering an OEM system using it in late 2015.

http://mdotcf.state.mi.us/public/tands/Details_Web/mdot_signal_optimization_guidelines.pdf

mlts22 wrote:
That is the issue right there. If there are reasonable yellow timings, it adds to safety. However, a few years ago, I remember playing a MMO with a guy who claimed he used to work for a red light camera maker. He said that since their camera has full control of the traffic signal, they could actually set a random timer to flip a green light red, snap a photo, then flip it back green, all in less than 50-100 milliseconds. Other times, he could set the camera and the signal to go directly from green to red every so often at random, and nobody driving from midnight to 6:00 AM would contest it. The only way a driver would even have a chance to defend themselves against a ticket gotten by this manner is if they had a dash cam that had the ability to look up. That way, it would record the bogus light change.

Since a lot of these cameras are leaded to a private camera owning company, and with no way to prove that the system isn't rigged to catch 100% lawful drivers by fooling around with light timing, Roscoe P. Coltraine style, it is no wonder why they are being tossed.

The guy was pulling your leg.

No system allows the camera system to take over the traffic signal controller.

There are far easier ways to rack up a lot of tickets if revenue is the goal.

Interesting. Where I grew up in western Massachusetts, Red & Yellow on at the same time meant it was time for pedestrians to cross.

That is the issue right there. If there are reasonable yellow timings, it adds to safety. However, a few years ago, I remember playing a MMO with a guy who claimed he used to work for a red light camera maker. He said that since their camera has full control of the traffic signal, they could actually set a random timer to flip a green light red, snap a photo, then flip it back green, all in less than 50-100 milliseconds. Other times, he could set the camera and the signal to go directly from green to red every so often at random, and nobody driving from midnight to 6:00 AM would contest it. The only way a driver would even have a chance to defend themselves against a ticket gotten by this manner is if they had a dash cam that had the ability to look up. That way, it would record the bogus light change.

Since a lot of these cameras are leaded to a private camera owning company, and with no way to prove that the system isn't rigged to catch 100% lawful drivers by fooling around with light timing, Roscoe P. Coltraine style, it is no wonder why they are being tossed.

In Tijuana Mexico, the green light starts flashing 5 times, once per second before it changes to amber and the amber is at least five seconds before it changes to red, all in an effort to prevent accidents.

Most accidents happen when distracted motorists run red lights trying to beat the amber, there will always be a wise guy, either a motorist or a crooked politician, most figure that a tourist will just pay, I call that extortion.

If more motorists sued the red light companies and the politicians, they might get the hint to do the right thing.

navegator

Pennsylvania has Red Light Running Cameras in Philadelphia. And the laws in PA are written so the municipalities can not change the yellow times. I've done safety studies at the intersections where the cameras are installed and there has been a slight decrease in crashes at those locations. Of course those locations were the worst locations for running red light crashes before the camera installs. At the time I did the study there were 13 locations covered by cameras.

Here is a little excerpt from my study where I looked at all red light running crashes city wide.
Six-year before and after red-light running crash data for the entire City of Philadelphia shows a 45.6% reduction in red-light running crashes, a 49.4% reduction in fatalities, a 45.2% reduction of major injuries, a 61.4% reduction of moderate injuries and a 57.8% reduction of minor injuries. Data was for the time periods of 1999 through 2004 and 2006 through 2011.

There is definitely a safety improvement that can be attributed to the cameras. Add to that the fact that the law also mandates that a portion of the money collected in the way of fines must be spread across the state to be used in other highway safety improvements further reducing crashes and or injuries.

Done right this is a good system. Done wrong, I agree it is a disaster waiting to happen.

In Chicago, they deliberately shortened yellow lights in order to catch more people, then trumpeted the revenue gains from doing so. With something this abused, I'm glad it is gotten rid of. Not like it is hard to enforce -- a single cop near an intersection will get people obeying the law in a heartbeat. Revenue generation can be done by a tax hike.

The two best systems I've seen were in Europe. European lights would signal red and yellow to tell drivers their turn was coming up.

We also have the countdown timers in Austin. I think it helps as a driver to judge if there is time to make it through the intersection versus being mentally prepared to stop.

2oldman wrote:
What would be the feasibility of having wifi devices in signal boxes to tell drivers with receivers how long that green is going to be? It would be a huge help to truckers, and those of us who tow heavy rigs. I doubt the amber is timed to how long it takes a big rig to stop.

What it tells me is that the light is about to change so I better speed up to make the light!

Where I live there is an ongoing controversy with some of our Don't Walk signals also have a countdown timer on them to tell the pedestrian how much time they have until the light changes. Problem is that the motorist approaching the intersection also sees them and often speeds up if the time is low.