Forum Discussion
- If anyone believes there is a shortage of propane they only need to come to PA or OH and look around. This is a scheme that was cooked up by the oil and gas industry. There are 4 processing plants within 100 miles of my home that did not exist 5 years ago. Look into Mark West Corp. It is fabricated to produce the profits they desire. Don't believe the bull ****!
- I was at Costco yesterday and their charge for filling a 20# gas grill sized cylinder was $12.99.
DiskDoctr wrote:
CavemanCharlie wrote:
I didn't know you could still get coal for home heating. All those old furnaces were taken out of commission around here many decades ago. How do you get the coal to your house? Do you have a room in the basement full of coal and several of times a day you go down there and shovel it into the furnace. Like on the old trains and steam ships? I'm only asking because I don't know.
The coal furnace I am using now is our backup unit. We are remodeling and I will need to reroute our water lines for the baseboard hot water heat, so we are using this old forced air furnace now.
Yes, it is the same principle as the old trains, but not quite as bad. I have a coal bin in the basement and unless it is extreme cold, we go to the basement and put a few shovels of coal in the furnace twice a day.
It makes steady and warm heat, as much as you want, for about $100/month in winter. We use just over a ton a month in the coldest months @ $85/ton. We haul it in a truck and carry it into the bins once a month.
Our boiler system that we'll bring back online for next season is self-fed hard coal (anthracite). Once lit, we put a little coal in the hopper every few days and empty a small pan of ashes. It is all automatic.
Anthracite does not have dust, smell, or smoke, though it is about $230 or so a ton. This setup quite easily provides all the heat AND domestic hot water you can possibly use. It is expected to use about 3/4 ton per month in the winter, maybe less depending on how well the remodel goes ;)
This boiler will be in parallel with a modified oil boiler that can take over if we are away for more than about 5 days.
But we do like an open fire, which is what we use the ventless propane freestanding fireplaces for.
Coal, especially hard coal stokers for either boiler or hot air, is certainly a cost effective and efficient alternative to other forms of heat- especially for those of us without municipal services like natural gas, water, sewage, etc.
A handfed furnace can use a blower to spread the hot air in the house, but doesn't require any electricity to burn. Always a good backup in an area that often has at least one multiple-day power outage each year.
The propane units also serve that purpose during an outage. We don't bring the generators online unless it lasts more than about 8hrs.
Hope this answers your questions.
Yes, Thank you. I don't think you can get coal around here though. But, I'm glad it works for you.CavemanCharlie wrote:
I didn't know you could still get coal for home heating. All those old furnaces were taken out of commission around here many decades ago. How do you get the coal to your house? Do you have a room in the basement full of coal and several of times a day you go down there and shovel it into the furnace. Like on the old trains and steam ships? I'm only asking because I don't know.
The coal furnace I am using now is our backup unit. We are remodeling and I will need to reroute our water lines for the baseboard hot water heat, so we are using this old forced air furnace now.
Yes, it is the same principle as the old trains, but not quite as bad. I have a coal bin in the basement and unless it is extreme cold, we go to the basement and put a few shovels of coal in the furnace twice a day.
It makes steady and warm heat, as much as you want, for about $100/month in winter. We use just over a ton a month in the coldest months @ $85/ton. We haul it in a truck and carry it into the bins once a month.
Our boiler system that we'll bring back online for next season is self-fed hard coal (anthracite). Once lit, we put a little coal in the hopper every few days and empty a small pan of ashes. It is all automatic.
Anthracite does not have dust, smell, or smoke, though it is about $230 or so a ton. This setup quite easily provides all the heat AND domestic hot water you can possibly use. It is expected to use about 3/4 ton per month in the winter, maybe less depending on how well the remodel goes ;)
This boiler will be in parallel with a modified oil boiler that can take over if we are away for more than about 5 days.
But we do like an open fire, which is what we use the ventless propane freestanding fireplaces for.
Coal, especially hard coal stokers for either boiler or hot air, is certainly a cost effective and efficient alternative to other forms of heat- especially for those of us without municipal services like natural gas, water, sewage, etc.
A handfed furnace can use a blower to spread the hot air in the house, but doesn't require any electricity to burn. Always a good backup in an area that often has at least one multiple-day power outage each year.
The propane units also serve that purpose during an outage. We don't bring the generators online unless it lasts more than about 8hrs.
Hope this answers your questions.DiskDoctr wrote:
arizal wrote:
CNG is stored at around 3,000 psi in a compressed gaseous form rather than liquid like LPG so the cost of a storage tank many thousands of dollars more expensive than those used for Propane. Also the amount of BTUs stored in the same sized tank would be much less with CNG as you would not have the advantage of a vaporizing liquid in the tank.
The CNG delivery truck would be ultra expensive and heavy as it would have to be a tube trailer with least a 3,000 pound rating. The only way to make CNG viable is to have a pump at the end of the Natural Gas pipe line to fill the very expensive DOT approved CNG tanks in vehicles. This is why it is seen mainly in city fleets. The tax payers can afford it and it makes the mayor feel like his city is working at being greener.
If you have the ability to fill CNG tanks, you probably already have natural gas at your residence.
ArizAl
Thank you for the detailed info. I didn't know about the pressure differential between propane and CNG.
We do not have NG available here, but it is in a nearby town. There are also a number of well-heads around and a few CNG fueling stations showed up in a nearby city a few years back. I don't think they are still around, though.
@Mowermech-
I believe using the term gouging is quite justified as prices have jumped between 2x and 2.5x in the past month. One could almost make a case that the shortage is a 'national emergency' since it is so widespread and critical to many for heat.
For us, our primary heat is coal. Propane is a convenience with a few ventless heaters. In this -30f to -50f wind and negative single and double digit temps, we exceed our calculated heatload in this farmhouse and have to run the coal above 90% output, which is a lot of extra work. At 80% it needs fed twice a day and keeps the house at 68f-76f quite easily.
We aren't full timers yet, so at least we have the option of waiting for propane. A lot of folks I know with propane as primary heat have fixed pricing for the season, but I am doubting many (most?) campers do.
We've been considering adding a 500gal propane tank for the farm as a just in case, but the hassle of filling smaller tanks has held us back. Maybe this summer we'll reconsider as prices drop (hopefully).
Guess it's time to restart an earlier project to convert my backup boiler over to use straight WVO. It already uses biodiesel, but I didn't make a surplus this year.
We have a few options to adjust to fluctuating markets for fuel, but these unforeseen and rapid onset profiteering events are hard to see coming ;)
I didn't know you could still get coal for home heating. All those old furnaces were taken out of commission around here many decades ago. How do you get the coal to your house? Do you have a room in the basement full of coal and several of times a day you go down there and shovel it into the furnace. Like on the old trains and steam ships? I'm only asking because I don't know.DiskDoctr wrote:
A lot of folks I know with propane as primary heat have fixed pricing for the season, but I am doubting many (most?) campers do.
We've been considering adding a 500gal propane tank for the farm as a just in case, but the hassle of filling smaller tanks has held us back. Maybe this summer we'll reconsider as prices drop (hopefully).
My sister-in-law lives in Western PA too. Her ventless heater is the ONLY source of heat in her house. She has to get 2 tanks of propane a day when the weather gets brutal. A large tank is something that I asked her about. Unfortunately, her mobile home is inaccessible by propane trucks, so this is what she must do to keep her home warm.
When I hear stories like hers, it makes me appreciate living in a suburban neighborhood that is serviced by Natural Gas. The funny thing is, I’ve overpaid my gas bill for the past year. I discovered that they owe me a year’s worth of gas. Woo Hoo! Turn up the furnace!:)arizal wrote:
CNG is stored at around 3,000 psi in a compressed gaseous form rather than liquid like LPG so the cost of a storage tank many thousands of dollars more expensive than those used for Propane. Also the amount of BTUs stored in the same sized tank would be much less with CNG as you would not have the advantage of a vaporizing liquid in the tank.
The CNG delivery truck would be ultra expensive and heavy as it would have to be a tube trailer with least a 3,000 pound rating. The only way to make CNG viable is to have a pump at the end of the Natural Gas pipe line to fill the very expensive DOT approved CNG tanks in vehicles. This is why it is seen mainly in city fleets. The tax payers can afford it and it makes the mayor feel like his city is working at being greener.
If you have the ability to fill CNG tanks, you probably already have natural gas at your residence.
ArizAl
Thank you for the detailed info. I didn't know about the pressure differential between propane and CNG.
We do not have NG available here, but it is in a nearby town. There are also a number of well-heads around and a few CNG fueling stations showed up in a nearby city a few years back. I don't think they are still around, though.
@Mowermech-
I believe using the term gouging is quite justified as prices have jumped between 2x and 2.5x in the past month. One could almost make a case that the shortage is a 'national emergency' since it is so widespread and critical to many for heat.
For us, our primary heat is coal. Propane is a convenience with a few ventless heaters. In this -30f to -50f wind and negative single and double digit temps, we exceed our calculated heatload in this farmhouse and have to run the coal above 90% output, which is a lot of extra work. At 80% it needs fed twice a day and keeps the house at 68f-76f quite easily.
We aren't full timers yet, so at least we have the option of waiting for propane. A lot of folks I know with propane as primary heat have fixed pricing for the season, but I am doubting many (most?) campers do.
We've been considering adding a 500gal propane tank for the farm as a just in case, but the hassle of filling smaller tanks has held us back. Maybe this summer we'll reconsider as prices drop (hopefully).
Guess it's time to restart an earlier project to convert my backup boiler over to use straight WVO. It already uses biodiesel, but I didn't make a surplus this year.
We have a few options to adjust to fluctuating markets for fuel, but these unforeseen and rapid onset profiteering events are hard to see coming ;)- All I can say in my area MD, PA and West Va areas (Tractor Supply), Propane was 2.49 gal all last year till early Dec. this year then it spiked to 3.29 a gal. 80 cent change in less than 2 months. Tractor Supply is the cheapest in these areas for propane from what I have found.
- Up-to-date (perhaps) information about propane:
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2014/01/26/22455731-prolonged-cold-blast-worsens-propane-shortage-across-midwest?lite - I looked at CNG just as an experiment. For all the time/trouble it would take to go to natural gas, the vehicle would have be usable for 20+ years, and with the average vehicle life being around 100-150k miles, it isn't worth it.
CNG is good for powering up stationary stuff from pipelines, but as a portable fuel source, we just have far better options. LPG comes to mind, but best of all is diesel which can be made from all sorts of things (veggies, motor oil, you name it,) and would have the best energy per unit volume... plus,diesel is flammable, but doesn't have a vapor issue like gasoline, CNG, or LPG.
