Pls respect Canadian laws

am1958 wrote:

cptqueeg wrote:
Your assumption the total amount of infections is a forgone conclusion is only of several falsehoods in your opinion.

The amount of infections in total is controlled by the actions of the people. Clearly several countries and states have managed to not only flatten the curve, but BEND it.

Sorry, but you are wrong. Think about the area under the graph. You are mistaking stretching out the infections over a longer period of time with reducing the overall number of infections. Without a vaccine everyone required to have become immune through infection to provide herd immunity for the remainder has to catch the virus to become immune. That is a fixed number that cannot be altered in any given population. If herd immunity requires 98% immunity in a given population you cannot force a lower percentage by slowing down the rate of infection in that population.

Those countries are still getting infections but they have extended the duration of the infection rate _or_ they have reached herd immunity.

Let's also look at the sensibilities. Allowing people to to mingle without masks is not a mandatory thing. If you don't want to then you don't have to. Stay home. It's called freedom. If you own a business you can mandate mask wearing and you must accept that some people will go elsewhere. It's called freedom for both you and your customers.

Furthermore, you have no need whatsoever in most of the western world to have to go to a grocery store and shop. Somewhere close to you will be a store that you can order online and pick up at the kerb. Don't come into the store with we unclean ones and then claim we're risking your life.

If I chose to go out without a mask it is my responsibility to stay away from my mother in laws nursing home to protect her. If you choose to go out unprotected it's your responsibility to keep your granny safe. It is no more my responsibility to look after your granny than it is for you to look after my mother in law. If either of us chose the freedom to go unmasked then we shouldn't be going to old people's homes, care facilities or near people who have conditions that makes them vulnerable but it most certainly is their responsibility to stay away from people who are potentially infected.

My 90 year old father in the UK isn't allowed in any shops or post offices etc. He has neighbors and volunteers run his errands and drop them off at the door. He walks the river bank for three miles every day and zooms the family and his friends for company. While I'm very happy about this he is, in reality, only hiding from the disease. Eventually, they will allow him into a shop or post office and if he chooses to enter then he accepts the risk of infection. But again, the UK is only stretching out the period where infections will take place.

You may choose to hide from the virus for the rest of your life. It would be quite possible I'm sure, but most of us don't want to live like grubby little hermits never leaving our homes that gradually fill with rubbish because going to the curb is all a bit too risky.

Every COVID19 source i can encounter completely contradicts your statements. What is your source?

GDS-3950BH wrote:

JRscooby wrote:


This statement, while likely true is part of the problem. The US, unlike other developed counties in the world is to poor to test enough of the population near often enough to know who has it, so we could make only them mask. And the last couple of generations are so much Me,Me,it's all about me to understand if I wear a mask to protect you, the polite thing to do would be wear 1 to protect me.

Too poor? How about logistically or physically impossible? If you could somehow test two million folks per day, every day, 7 days a week, it would only take 5-1/2 months and what would it tell you? Since a person can be negative today and positive tomorrow it would tell you nada. Now if you could test 329,000,000 people every week, or 47,000,000 per day which is 32,600 people per minute, and then do it over and over, you may have something.

Yes, poor. Poor, because we can say We can't test 4 million a day. Yes it would take a lot more manpower and resources to do it. If we invested the same percentage per person as other counties it could be done. Some of the out of work could be hired to make stuff for kits, others, taking the sample. Others do the lab work.

cptqueeg wrote:
Your assumption the total amount of infections is a forgone conclusion is only of several falsehoods in your opinion.

The amount of infections in total is controlled by the actions of the people. Clearly several countries and states have managed to not only flatten the curve, but BEND it.

Sorry, but you are wrong. Think about the area under the graph. You are mistaking stretching out the infections over a longer period of time with reducing the overall number of infections. Without a vaccine everyone required to have become immune through infection to provide herd immunity for the remainder has to catch the virus to become immune. That is a fixed number that cannot be altered in any given population. If herd immunity requires 98% immunity in a given population you cannot force a lower percentage by slowing down the rate of infection in that population.

Those countries are still getting infections but they have extended the duration of the infection rate _or_ they have reached herd immunity.

Let's also look at the sensibilities. Allowing people to to mingle without masks is not a mandatory thing. If you don't want to then you don't have to. Stay home. It's called freedom. If you own a business you can mandate mask wearing and you must accept that some people will go elsewhere. It's called freedom for both you and your customers.

Furthermore, you have no need whatsoever in most of the western world to have to go to a grocery store and shop. Somewhere close to you will be a store that you can order online and pick up at the kerb. Don't come into the store with we unclean ones and then claim we're risking your life.

If I chose to go out without a mask it is my responsibility to stay away from my mother in laws nursing home to protect her. If you choose to go out unprotected it's your responsibility to keep your granny safe. It is no more my responsibility to look after your granny than it is for you to look after my mother in law. If either of us chose the freedom to go unmasked then we shouldn't be going to old people's homes, care facilities or near people who have conditions that makes them vulnerable but it most certainly is their responsibility to stay away from people who are potentially infected.

My 90 year old father in the UK isn't allowed in any shops or post offices etc. He has neighbors and volunteers run his errands and drop them off at the door. He walks the river bank for three miles every day and zooms the family and his friends for company. While I'm very happy about this he is, in reality, only hiding from the disease. Eventually, they will allow him into a shop or post office and if he chooses to enter then he accepts the risk of infection. But again, the UK is only stretching out the period where infections will take place.

You may choose to hide from the virus for the rest of your life. It would be quite possible I'm sure, but most of us don't want to live like grubby little hermits never leaving our homes that gradually fill with rubbish because going to the curb is all a bit too risky.

am1958 wrote:
Let's take the emotion and politics out of this and think logically.

We were first told that in order to stop the hospitals from being overwhelmed we needed to "flatten the curve". That's both reasonable and logical. What happens when you "flatten a curve", (push down on the top)? Since it's X axis is time then the left side can't move but when you push down on the peak the right side gets pushed further to the right.

The area under the original graph may represent infections, hospitalizations or deaths, it really doesn't matter which. When you pushed down on the peak and the right end of the graph moved further right the two things that did not change are the start point on the left and the area under the graph.

The area under the graph not changing at all is very important because that tells us that whatever you are measuring won't change in total but only the duration of events will change. So, regardless of what we do the government has already admitted that we will have the same number of events short a vaccine.

Now, we already know that the hospitals were not overwhelmed as witnessed by hospital ships going unused and 1000 bed temporary hospitals were equally under-employed.

We can therefore surmise that no one has died through lack of or insufficient hospital care. If no one has died because of inadequate care then it seems likely that if you have certain determining factors and catch the disease then you are going to die, period.

Since it is likely that until either a reasonable herd immunity is generated or an effective vaccine is created the total number of eventual infections is not going to change then it would seem sensible to allow the virus to run it's course and the susceptible will die.

Yes, there is an argument that you can extend the infections over a longer period of time in order to await the vaccine thus saving those lives but vaccines are squirrely things that look promising right up until the last minute. It's a reasonable argument until you look at what this is doing to the economy. Saving a few lives now for the death of an entire country and the resulting deaths that would bring is a bad deal in anyone's book.

Finally, our "experts" have been wrong for so long now it's beginning to be a bit of a joke. Most of these people have got their foot onto the GS pay ladder and stayed there working their way up one of the most inefficient and often incompetent systems available. They are "advising" people like Gretchen Whitmer whose entire life experience consists of leaving Law School in 1998 and entering the Michigan House of Representatives in 2000.

Compare her life experience to mine. I have lived, worked in or visited 24 countries on four continents many of them third world countries. I served ten years in the military both jumping from and crewing aircraft. I was a survival instructor and Combat First Aid trained amongst many other things. I speak three languages sufficient to get by. I have also held senior administrative positions in business for over 25 years.

Somehow, I'm expected to follow the instructions of a woman who may have gone on vacation to Mexico and Canada and who is being advised by similar people to those who gave us the Flint Water Fiasco.

I think not!!!

As to what Canada wants. It's their train set and they can play with it any way they like but just remember they are being led by a bunch of Gretchen Whitmers too.

Your assumption the total amount of infections is a forgone conclusion is only of several falsehoods in your opinion.

The amount of infections in total is controlled by the actions of the people. Clearly several countries and states have managed to not only flatten the curve, but BEND it.

JRscooby wrote:


This statement, while likely true is part of the problem. The US, unlike other developed counties in the world is to poor to test enough of the population near often enough to know who has it, so we could make only them mask. And the last couple of generations are so much Me,Me,it's all about me to understand if I wear a mask to protect you, the polite thing to do would be wear 1 to protect me.

Too poor? How about logistically or physically impossible? If you could somehow test two million folks per day, every day, 7 days a week, it would only take 5-1/2 months and what would it tell you? Since a person can be negative today and positive tomorrow it would tell you nada. Now if you could test 329,000,000 people every week, or 47,000,000 per day which is 32,600 people per minute, and then do it over and over, you may have something.

Walaby wrote:
I think many folks have issues because the so-called experts are wrong more than they are right. And in some cases shape the information to fit the agenda.

From what I have seen there has been some change in the message from experts. But if you drop the discussions of the politicians, most of that change could be traced to experts learning more.

Take the mask situation. Early on we were told wearing a mask could actually be detrimental and counterproductive. Only to find out we were told that likely to protect critical supplies from being wiped out. Noble gesture, but nevertheless...

But fact is, it is a shame that even without people buying them up like toilet paper the medical profession did run out of PPE in many places. (Was the TP shortage to make us stop shaking hands?) The lie to save the stock of masks, is outweighed by other lies we have heard about it.

The cloth masks are okay to keep you from spewing germs on someone else, but they do little to nothing to keep virus's from entering in. Which is fine too, because it can prevent the spread. Just don't think that it will protect you.

This statement, while likely true is part of the problem. The US, unlike other developed counties in the world is to poor to test enough of the population near often enough to know who has it, so we could make only them mask. And the last couple of generations are so much Me,Me,it's all about me to understand if I wear a mask to protect you, the polite thing to do would be wear 1 to protect me.
Then there is the studies that say if both catch it the black man is more likely to die. What is a racist to do?

As retired military, I've been to more countries than most. You're constitutional rights end at the border. Follow the host countries laws, PERIOD or stay home.

Mike

Thank you for your service, welcome home, and I'm sorry. And I thank you for pointing out our constitutional rights end at the border. They also end at the door of the store. You have a right to spread your germs on your property if you want. On the public property there might be some question. But you have no right to come in my store, contaminate my stock and building, endanger the employees and customers.
And IMHO, you spit at somebody next spit should discharge blood if not teeth.

Monaramblee wrote:
The border is closed to non essential traffic so i would think anyone crossing the border is fully aware of the protocol.

Define essential travel. My 82 year old mother lives in Guelph Ontario. She has stage 3 cancer and is trying to undergo treatments. Her husband has Alzheimer’s disease. No family members around to help. Does that qualify as essential travel for me to come and help? The Canadian government says no. But, if I’m driving to Alaska for vacation, come on in.

I think many folks have issues because the so-called experts are wrong more than they are right. And in some cases shape the information to fit the agenda.

Take the mask situation. Early on we were told wearing a mask could actually be detrimental and counterproductive. Only to find out we were told that likely to protect critical supplies from being wiped out. Noble gesture, but nevertheless...

The cloth masks are okay to keep you from spewing germs on someone else, but they do little to nothing to keep virus's from entering in. Which is fine too, because it can prevent the spread. Just don't think that it will protect you.

I still subscribe to social distancing and wearing a mask when I cant. Im not going to hide in my house for another six months though. I've gone out to eat, I've gone camping, and I've gone shopping.

As retired military, I've been to more countries than most. You're constitutional rights end at the border. Follow the host countries laws, PERIOD or stay home.

Mike

Its curious to me the ones who advocate to let the virus run its course and hence let the vulnerabe die. That is of course one way to go and in doing so, the ones advocating this idea will be less inconvenienced. But if we listen to the professionals and be inconvenienced for a while longer we can save many lives. I believe we are losing many people because we are not adhering to suggestions and laws. Just remember that these people dying are not numbers and percentages. If you come to Canada obey the 14 day quarantine, maybe you will save a life.

wa8yxm wrote:

I might well put my skills to work helping to stop an invasion but even though I'm a "Cold shot" (means if I have to shoot you I have no problem doing it) My skills are better used elsewhere... Trust me when I tell you one well armed man is not the most dangerous foe invaders can face... (His dispatcher is).

If I'm not mistaken, most any time a army invades a country much of it's force is used to protect it's supply lines. I consider my hand washing, stay away from people and mask as guerrilla war to disrupt the supply lines until we get a vaccine. What, pray tell, is a better use of my skills? I know it is not a real good analogy, but if it would spread to the patriots maybe the US could do as well as the rest of the world at slowing it.

time2roll wrote:

JRscooby wrote:
IMHO, the only reason US is so far behind is from the start we made the virus a political issue instead of a health issue.

We have a culture of protesters and defying the government.
Currently even the federal government seems to be doing same to the medical science collective knowledge.
Amazing that we get any progress these days.

Yes, protesting goes deeper to the foundation of US than guns. But, most of our history, we protested political issues. Over the years, a very small percentage of the population would protest over health issues.
The men that signed the Declaration, as far as I can tell all believed in science. Now we have a lot of people that will swear "My ignorance is as good as your education!" I am not educated, and have met with many educated that have a view so limited they appear to be totally lacking in common sense. But I know that common sense must have good info to make decisions. And the people most likely to have the good info are the people that study it every day.

ExxWhy wrote:
A good reason to stay out of Canada at the moment. A bit draconian for my tastes, though I see a smattering of applause. I bet the same people would frown on arresting someone for say tearing down a statue.

Not going into what the punishment should be for tearing down a statue, or maybe passing a bad $20.
But the fact is Canada wants people from US to stay out of their country. So does Mexico, most of Europe.

If you don't live in a nursing home, a person has a 1 in 11,500 chance of dying of wuhan virus here in Ohio. (about 1000 deaths out of 11.5 mil people) Much less than that for the average reasonably healthy person. Nursing home population is about 80K, or less than 1%. So we are going to destroy the economy of the other 99% in order to help protect a population that is already quarantined and wearing the all important maaaaaask! Hmmmmmmm

Most of the reason mankind has advanced to the point we can talk about RVs on computers is most can learn from successes and mistakes of others. Now I might be a little of on the timelines, locations, but think I have a idea about what is happening. I have not looked at Ohio at all.
First, people where dying at a faster than normal rate in China. News says there where some stumbles, but within a short time people where forced to stay home, and soon the number of cases started to drop. Next hot spot was Italy. As soon as testing told them it was out of control, they paid most people to stay home, made then stay apart and wear a mask when out. A short time, they got to where they could test, if POS, tell them to isolate, and test the people sick had contacted. Japan pretty much same story. New Zealand has got case numbers down to 0. At the same time we where having cases in NYC. and around US. But this country, thankfully can not order us to stay home. And we lack the resources to pay people to stay home. But even with that handicap, ordering business to close, ordering distance and mask, NY has managed to get the rate of infection done to the point people can be buried as fast as they are dying.
Now Az, Tx and Fl are needing trailers to hold dead bodies. because the morgues are full. Now some can say Covid-19 is not that serious. Can you give another explanation why death rate is so much higher than normal? And what about the other health issues people that "recover" have? I'm going to do what I can to slow the spread in Mo. Because people in this country want to travel I would prefer you take precautions in Ohio, or wherever you are.
In any country where you order business to close, the economy will take a hit. But in rich countries, where the gov can afford to pay the workers to stay home from work for a short time, afford to test so know who can spread, when the business can open, they still have their most valuable asset. A restaurant likely will have trouble filling the tables when half the population is trying to catch up on rent and car payment.