RV Fuel Issues & Prices - Post 'Em Here!

Back to just talking directly about gas :R
Alternatives not allowed :(
Maybe the title s/b "Gasoline and Diesel Issues and Prices"

$4.14 and rising in OC

http://www.orangecountygasprices.com/

You are looking at monopoly economics plain and simple. The price is what ever the traffic will bear.

Gold Canyon (Az) Shell at $3.599, diesel at $4.199.

Price of oil goes up, fuel price goes up. Price of oil stagnates, fuel price goes up. Price goes down, fuel price can rise even then. Seems gas/diesel price is only associated with crude price when crude goes up. Refining capacity reduced due to weather, etc., fuel price goes up. Refining capacity stable, fuel price goes up.

If we use what?, .4 to .5 billion gallons a day, is it not possible that this ripoff is amounting to the largest scam in history on a daily basis? Politicians at every level are co-opted, those in the industry are happy with the situation, as are the DoE & EPA, who hope prices double, however it happens. Those of us in rural areas are getting creamed, as are the poor folks who must commute to a low wage job. Is there any hope?

Actually there was excess refining capacity in that time frame but with by todays standards poor technology. There were little refineries that were in the 50k bbl/day range with no economy of scale. They were originally built for a local oil well that had since dried up. They piped or shipped in crude and the cost was just too high so they were shut down. The mid grade refineries in the 100K bbl range got de-bottle necked a term called creep in the industry. That increased their capacity to make up for a lot of the loss of small refineries and new much more efficient technology was incorporated. The idea that their were no new refineries built for years while true is not accurate from a bbls / day perspective because of increasing the capacity of existing refineries. We went from 75K / day in the early 1970s to 125K in the early 19780s and up to 175K / day by the late 1990s by improving technology and new process units. The numbers of employees dropped by 2/3 in the same time frame.

Del, that makes sense. I'm wondering if another factor may have been the lack of new refining capacity at a time when the number of vehicles was increasing rapidly.

LR, I know too well what a mess that puppy was. I went through two of them, the original and a Target replacement, in that Olds in just under 100k, each giving out at 49,000 and change.

Olds took a lot better care of their customers than Buick, replacing my engine for $350, probably that was extorted from me by the dealer. A friend with a Buick was told there was nothing they could do for him as the 3/36 or whatever it was warranty had expired.

I know there were some significant advances in cat cracking and reforming at that time that greatly increased the the percentage of gasoline made per barrel of crude oil. For years diesel being the smaller market was over supplied in order to produce sufficient gasoline. I think this is the cause. I'll virtually bet on it.

Refining is a very delicate balancing act and increased environmental regulations especially by region add another few variables in the mix.

Del, can't give a date certain, but when gas was in the 30¢ range, diesel was priced in the teens. As for a date, best I recall, when I purchased an Oldsmobile diesel in 1980, diesel either had recently, or soon became more expensive than gasoline.

So, if I understand you, diesel bought on a gallon basis still contains a lot more usable energy than gasoline bought on a gallon basis. A dollars worth of diesel will get you further down the road than a dollars worth of gas. (on average). On a gallon by gallon basis, diesel is still a better buy even at the higher price. I think you would also have to calculate in the higher initial cost of the engine and also higher maintenance costs. Then again, diesels have a longer life time and depreciate less. Not sure how to figure that. I think when many people were making their gas diesel purchase decisions they were based on the lower cost of diesel.

Lindsay Richards

When looking at fuels one must watch the units. Gasoline has more BTUs per LB because it has more hydrogen in the fuel and hydrogen has 62,000 BTUs / LB verses carbon at 14,500 BTUs/LB. However those fuels with more carbon are denser and because of the increased mass have more BTUs per gallon because there are more pounds of fuel in that gallon. If memory serves me gasoline is about 115,000 BTUs / gal and diesel is about 138,000 BTUs / Gal. The other factor is a diesel engine being a heat machine derives greater efficiency by running at a higher temperature. Gasoline engines were 15% thermally efficient to a diesel being 25%. Advances in technology increased the gasoline engine to above 20% I believe and diesels to 30%. Automotive engineering is not my speciality so if anyone knows the numbers please correct me.

Gasoline until recently has been the driving force of refining economics. Refineries made enough gasoline and at times, especially in summer too much #2 oil (diesel) was made as a byproduct. Since the economic decline in 2008 with the result of 3 million less barrels of crude oil per day consumed in the US many refineries closed and gasoline is no longer taking center stage. The excess diesel previously made as a byproduct of gasoline refining is no longer happening and with it price restructuring with more equal supply and demand taking effect without an oversupply to be discounted.

I'm unaware of any overnight change two decades ago but if you had a time and I can possibly research it. I don't have a lot of knowledge of upstream (Exploration & Production) but have some understanding of downstream (Marketing & Refining). The Downstream operations are very competitive.