Safety for Children at a campground

I work in a hospital and if a code purple, missing child, goes out, doors are closed and no one gets out until the child is found. I have yet to hear one person complain, cause we all know that for the Grace of God, There go I.

Mostly, we are ;)

A few points on this part, though...

et2 wrote:
As far as a LEO, if you haven't committed a crime the only thing your required to do (traffic stop) is identify yourself (drivers license). You don't have to answer to any question, unless you choose too. But be prepared anything you say ... Well you know the rest. As far as all the things you mention, beatings, tazed, etc for not cooperating. Well that's just trying to scare people and has no business in this conversation. One doesn't have to give up their rights because of fear.

First, I'll be blunt about a LEO encounter. I do NOT believe in surrendering any Rights whatsoever. I believe our (especially Constitutional) Rights are absolute and there to protect us from...anybody, including authorities.

Having said that, knowing and exercising your Rights is sometimes a challenge for the lay person to know when the situation changes- ie a LEO doesn't have to disclose to you what and when he has RAS (Reasonably Articulable Suspicion). If you aren't careful and knowledgeable in this area, it is possible your exercising of your Rights can change into resisting arrest or failure to comply with a lawful order, or something else without you realizing it.

By all means, exercise your Rights- ALL your Rights- to their fullest, Responsible extent. But educate yourself and be aware of the points I mentioned, as they are often the reality of an encounter.

To avoid getting political or whatever, I'll stop there. It suffices to say every decent person should immediately and fully work together to locate a missing child, in which case no one would need be challenged for a search or any other personal impositions. God Speed in their efforts!

DiskDoctr wrote:

et2 wrote:
If you're held by someone against your will its kidnapping and charges cab be levied against those individuals. Unless you agree to something in writing and waived your rights you can't be held against your will. Much less to they have any right to search you or your property if you haven't committed a crime, without walking into a law suit.

Not saying what was trying to be accomplished wasn't in good intentions, it doesn't supersede anyones rights by individuals wanting to play cop. Unless of course you willingly agree to it.

LEO's do not have the right nor do you have to obey a LEO demanding to search your vehicle. A search warrant must be obtained unless you are observed committing a crime or there is "reasonable" suspicion. Then it's up to the courts to sort out if the LEO crossed the line.

Sure, you can make people sign something stating you have the right to detain or hold them and search them, but I'd bet your business would be belly up in short order.

A few clairifications.

1. You CAN be held against your will upon a 'Citizens Arrest' My comment about many states requiring a felony in your presence was alluding to that situation. The risk? If you are wrong, you can be charged with holding someone against their will- usually a crime. I am not aware of signing anything allowing you to be held against your will.

2. You should NEVER refuse to follow a LEO's orders. There may be repercussions later, but that is what a judge and your lawyer is for. Object verbally and calmly, but comply with physical orders. As et2 stated, they may not have the 'Right' to search, but that is what judges and lawyers will sort out later.

Personally, I would be searching through my stuff anyways. Just in case the little bugger is hiding in a cubby hole or under a blanket or something. Doesn't mean I would let an 'official' do it, but doesn't mean I wouldn't, either. Likely, we'd stay and help search.

Edit: Better way to say this part: "LEO's do not have the right nor do you have to {obey} CONSENT TO a LEO demanding to search your vehicle." ...Bold is mine. You do have to obey, but you do NOT have to consent.

I believe we aren't talking about the same thing. So here it is in a nut shell, if you haven't committed a crime - NOBODY - has any legal authority to detain you, search you, look into or enter your home,car,RV, ETC. Unless you agree to it. If there is no crime you better not be accusing someone of it and "claiming " a citizens arrest , or YOUR" going to be hearing from a lawyer and your savings are going to shrink. So before you try to be the hero, you better have something to back up your accusations.

As far as a LEO, if you haven't committed a crime the only thing your required to do (traffic stop) is identify yourself (drivers license). You don't have to answer to any question, unless you choose too. But be prepared anything you say ... Well you know the rest. As far as all the things you mention, beatings, tazed, etc for not cooperating. Well that's just trying to scare people and has no business in this conversation. One doesn't have to give up their rights because of fear.

We were camping here in Washington when my grandchildren were little. I noticed this young man staring at the boys but I just kind of kept my eye on him, thinking it might be my own imagination. That evening my 8 year old grandson walked to the bathroom and as always I walked with him and stood outside. Suddenly I hear GRANDMA and I ran in. This same guy had his pants down and was holding my grandson by the arm.
The ranger told me that someone else had complained about this guy but he took off and we never saw him again. If I had been DAD or GRANDPA the guy would have been dead

et2 wrote:
If you're held by someone against your will its kidnapping and charges cab be levied against those individuals. Unless you agree to something in writing and waived your rights you can't be held against your will. Much less to they have any right to search you or your property if you haven't committed a crime, without walking into a law suit.

Not saying what was trying to be accomplished wasn't in good intentions, it doesn't supersede anyones rights by individuals wanting to play cop. Unless of course you willingly agree to it.

LEO's do not have the right nor do you have to obey a LEO demanding to search your vehicle. A search warrant must be obtained unless you are observed committing a crime or there is "reasonable" suspicion. Then it's up to the courts to sort out if the LEO crossed the line.

Sure, you can make people sign something stating you have the right to detain or hold them and search them, but I'd bet your business would be belly up in short order.

A few clairifications.

1. You CAN be held against your will upon a 'Citizens Arrest' My comment about many states requiring a felony in your presence was alluding to that situation. The risk? If you are wrong, you can be charged with holding someone against their will- usually a crime. I am not aware of signing anything allowing you to be held against your will.

2. You should NEVER refuse to follow a LEO's orders. There may be repercussions later, but that is what a judge and your lawyer is for. Object verbally and calmly, but comply with physical orders. As et2 stated, they may not have the 'Right' to search, but that is what judges and lawyers will sort out later.

Personally, I would be searching through my stuff anyways. Just in case the little bugger is hiding in a cubby hole or under a blanket or something. Doesn't mean I would let an 'official' do it, but doesn't mean I wouldn't, either. Likely, we'd stay and help search.

Edit: Better way to say this part: "LEO's do not have the right nor do you have to {obey} CONSENT TO a LEO demanding to search your vehicle." ...Bold is mine. You do have to obey, but you do NOT have to consent.

If you're held by someone against your will its kidnapping and charges cab be levied against those individuals. Unless you agree to something in writing and waived your rights you can't be held against your will. Much less to they have any right to search you or your property if you haven't committed a crime, without walking into a law suit.

Not saying what was trying to be accomplished wasn't in good intentions, it doesn't supersede anyones rights by individuals wanting to play cop. Unless of course you willingly agree to it.

LEO's do not have the right nor do you have to obey a LEO demanding to search your vehicle. A search warrant must be obtained unless you are observed committing a crime or there is "reasonable" suspicion. Then it's up to the courts to sort out if the LEO crossed the line.

Sure, you can make people sign something stating you have the right to detain or hold them and search them, but I'd bet your business would be belly up in short order.

John S. wrote:
Well it s private property. They can put a clause in the paperwork they make you sign when you register too. They only clse the gate off till law enforcement arrives to keep it sealed off.

Partly correct. As private citizen/private party, they are limited to 'requiring you to comply or else ask you to leave' Once they have asked you to leave, they have revoked your permission to be there. A refusal can be Trespass or Defiant Trespass.

That's it. Unless they have witnessed you committing a crime (specifically, a felony in many states), they cannot detain you or force you to do anything, including leave. They can call LEO who can make your leave, levy charges, or do an investigative contact.

Now. They can and IMHO *should* ask everyone to comply with a request to remain until the child is found or you are 'cleared' to go. Greater good kind of thing.

Just keep in mind, if a LEO searches your vehicle looking for a child and finds your stash of drugs, you are most certainly going to jail, even if that wasn't the purpose of a search. There is NO SUCH THING as a 'limited scope search' once you've given permission.

In practical terms, however, persons are seldom appropriately punished for violation of your 4th Amendment Rights. Sure, evidence is thrown out, charges dismissed, but very few punitive actions.

If a LEO wanted to find a child, knowingly violated your 4A rights, (you STILL MUST COMPLY with his orders, even if you object), he may still search, knowing he can't use anything he finds as evidence against you. That's not his purpose, so he doesn't care. A slimy twisting of the rules, but that's reality every day.

For the purists: True, technically you are required to comply with 'lawful orders' not unlawful ones. But you will likely be charged with resisting, tasered, beaten, shot, jailed, who knows what else before you *may* be allowed to return to your normal life. The exceptions are things like, "He told me to shoot that homeless guy."

This is not legal advice, simply observations ;)

Well it s private property. They can put a clause in the paperwork they make you sign when you register too. They only clse the gate off till law enforcement arrives to keep it sealed off.

Dutch_12078 wrote:

et2 wrote:

John S. wrote:


The first thing they do is one of the employees in a golf cart rushes up to the main gate and locks it down. Then he inspects every vehicle before they are let out.

Just a little concerned about that statement and the constitutional ramifications of it. The fourth amendment sorta spells it out. I didn't know that when one goes camping their rights are just thrown out the window.

What's this country coming to. Now you have campgrounds acting like law enforcement. The nanny state is alive and well.

From the Cornell Law School web site:

A search occurs when an expectation of privacy that society considers reasonable is infringed by a governmental employee or by an agent of the government. Private individuals who are not acting in either capacity are exempt from the Fourth Amendment prohibitions.

www.law.cornell.edu/wex/fourth_amendment

I'm just spitballing here, and I agree with the Cornell Law School's interpretation and the good intentions of the campground, but what do they say about a non-government agent holding someone against their will? What law, if any, applies when a person does not consent to a search of their RV, wants to leave the campground, and the groundskeeper or camp host will not allow them passage.

I know that most would probably comply with a quick look in their car or pickup, but a Class A would require a more extensive search. And don't inject the if you have "nothing to hide" argument, because I don't care one way or the other. I'm strictly just wandering if the camp host or owner would be running into legal entanglements for illegally detaining someone against their wishes.

ol Bombero-JC wrote:

path1 wrote:
Please read for children's sake. Sad to post this but maybe it will help somebody.
Do not assume for 1 minute that any campground, resort, park etc is safe for anybody.

As a member of a "camping club" and a volunteer of the "new comers" committee I can tell you there are all kinds that RV. Our park runs a basic background check with the state and credit score info. The credit score is just to avoid members that have no income and looking for a cheap place to "live", not camp but live. And mainly because they are a pain to get out if they slip thru in the beginning with our state laws.

But the state background check was started because of a wacky couple that slipped in. We kept up the background checks after this couple left because it turned out to be a good safeguard for our park. In the process of running back ground checks for people applying for membership, we have had more people that we even thought or even suspect that have really bad stuff in their check.

Don't assume because it is a campground that your fellow camper are great people. Treat it as you would with your kids in a store, keep close eye on them. Our old full time neighbors used to spend summers here but have sold. She was a retired mental health county worker, she kept running into previous patients now enjoying the good RV life.

Yes, In the past we've have had couple pedifiles, rapists apply for membership. Would you believe some have responded that they have "re-paid their debt " to society type thing and why hold it against them? And they are going to sue. Guess what, private business can do most anything they want, excluding race, color type thing. And I'm glad we do a background check.

So when your kids are running around in the campground they are exposed to the same people you shop with everyday. And some of them might be nuts.

My RV's are old and could pass for a "homeless camp" when they need a wash (according to wife) Not ragging on homeless but you get the idea. What really surprised me (of average income)was some of the people that apply that have very high dollar rig and have really bad stuff on report. I thought they would have it together, atleast they look like it.

I'm not saying this as class warfare between big mega dollar Class A and little tiny cheap class C like mine. I'm pointing out that there are people in every spot in life that you might not want your children around.

We do have "sop" for lost people (children or 85 yrs olds that are lost again)and we practice it twice a year, if no real life situations happen within last 6 months. Our weak point is not securing the gate but dealing with the family member that has lost someone. They are usually so frantic they can't think right, and I don't blame them.

Hope this helps someone.(I'm hesitant posting this. There are probably 99.999 people that are great but it only takes one to ruin a life)

Pliz edit with paragraphs...for reader's sake..!:(

Thank you. (others may also).:C

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On edit - took the liberty of/for the edit to paragraphs.

BTW you have an interesting "clientèle"..:W


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Thanks for editing...Looks a lot better.