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holstein13's avatar
holstein13
Explorer
May 08, 2014

The Definitive Torque vs. Horsepower post

Year after year, I keep seeing the same old debates about torque vs. horsepower. Everyone seems to have a general idea that we are referring to power, but most don't really understand the relationship of torque to horsepower. Therefore, I've decided to try and explain it as best as I understand it. (caveat, I am not an engineer so feel free to clarify and correct any mistakes I make below.)

First of all, a bit of math. (Torque x Revolutions Per Minute / 5252 = Horsepower). Even if you aren't good with math, the important thing to note in this equation is that Torque times RPM divided by a constant equals horsepower. If we ignore the constant, we see that torque times RPM determines horsepower. In other words, horsepower is dependent on RPM and the faster your motor turns at a constant torque, the more horsepower you will get. (In practice, torque falls off, the faster the engine spins)

OK, so what is torque anyways? Let's look at a simple example of a bicycle. The motor on a bicycle is typically your legs and assuming you don't have clips on your pedals, the maximum amount of power you can apply to a pedal is determined by the weight of your body. In other words, if you stand on one pedal and apply all your weight to it, you will apply the maximum amount of torque to the pedal and gears. But here's the funny part. If your bike is in top gear and you start from a stand still, you could apply your entire body weight as torque to the pedals and still not move. Assuming the bike is held upright, you could conceivably stand right up on one pedal all day long generate maximum torque and generate zero horsepower. Why, because your RPMs are zero and as we have already seen, torque times zero RPMs equals zero horsepower.

So how about if we started off in 1st gear on our bike. As most of you know, 1st gear is the easy gear and lets you move uphill or get started with very little effort. The downside is that your bike won't move forward very fast in 1st gear, but you can apply your torque in such a way as to get the RPMs going and hence, generate horsepower that will move you.

Thinking about our bike again, try to imagine that you are comfortably cruising along in 4th gear at 10 miles per hour and you change gears to 5th gear; what happens? If you maintain the 10 miles per hour, you will find that your pedals will turn slower, but you will need more power in each stroke to maintain the same speed. To get the maximum speed out of your bike, you need to apply your maximum torque to the pedals and then turn the pedals as fast as you can.

Well it's exactly the same thing with internal combustion engines. The torque from your engine comes from the combustion of fuel in your cylinders. In general, the bigger the cylinder and the more efficient the combustion chamber and the more energy your fuel source has, determines your maximum torque. But like we saw in our bike example, lots of torque times low RPMs doesn't generate much power. I like to think of torque as the amount of power generated by a single revolution of the engine. (That is not technically true, but that's the way I like to think of it)

In the great gas vs. diesel debate, it often comes down to this. Diesel engines typically produce more torque and run at lower RPMs. Two comparable gas and diesel engines could produce the same amount of horsepower, but typically, the diesel will run slower and would theoretically be more efficient because it is wasting less power in the form of heat.

But there is one other very important thing that usually no one considers when looking at horsepower. The horsepower rating that you always see quoted by everyone is the horsepower at the maximum torque and RPM. Meaning, you only get that maximum horsepower in top gear at top speed and depending on how your vehicle is geared, you may never be able to achieve that top gear at maximum RPM because your vehicle is too heavy or has too much wind resistance or has some other friction. This is why gearing is so important.

So what are the key takeaways from all this?

1) Horsepower is a function of RPM times torque. The faster your engine turns, the more horsepower you will have.
2) You will probably never see the maximum horsepower your engine produces because you will rarely, if ever, go to your maximum RPMs in top gear.
3) In general, the larger the cylinder, the more torque that cylinder will produce.
4) Diesel fuel has more energy in a given quantity than does gasoline and by default will produce more torque, all else being equal.
5) Gearing is important.

People often say that it's horsepower that moves us up mountains and that is 100% true. The difference is that a high torque engine will produce that same horsepower at a lower RPM which often results in quieter operation and more fuel economy.

50 Replies

  • holstein13 wrote:
    ah64id wrote:

    Are you ignoring the comment about the max hp at max torque at max rpm?? If so, why?


    I don't have anything to add. Your comment makes sense. Not sure if I should edit the original post or just acknowledge your point.


    Ok, just wanted to make sure I was coming across clearly.
  • ah64id wrote:

    Are you ignoring the comment about the max hp at max torque at max rpm?? If so, why?


    I don't have anything to add. Your comment makes sense. Not sure if I should edit the original post or just acknowledge your point.
  • When I was racing vintage sports cars the definition went as follows:

    horsepower = how fast you hit the wall

    torque = how hard you hit it!
  • It may not be top rpm, it's rated rpm. My gas car is rated at 5200 but redline isn't until over 6000.

    Diesel engines usually make peak hp at max rpm, gas engines usually rev beyond rated rpm.


    Are you ignoring the comment about the max hp at max torque at max rpm?? If so, why?
  • ah64id wrote:


    So mathematically your statement is incorrect, hp and tq are mathematically related but the peaks occur at different rpms on nearly every engine.

    It also RARELY ever happens in top gear, simply based on top speed vs speed limits, tire limits, speed limiters, etc... Diesels are one of the few vehicles that can hit rated rpm in top gear on a highway and not be doing unsafe speeds. My truck tops out at 102 with the current tires before it begins to defuel.

    You can do this in lower gears by putting your foot on the floor, it's the most common way to achieve max hp. You might only make that peak hp for a small time as the rpms go thru the rated rpms or a shift occurs. But I bet there is only a small percentage of owners that have ever hit peak hp in top gear, but anyone who has ever held their foot on the floor thru redline has made their engines peak hp. Gears have nothing to do with it (torque management aside), it's about rpms and fuel.

    You don't have to load an engine to the point of ceasing acceleration to make peak power.


    Excellent points. I should amend my statement to say that peak horsepower will only occur on a sustained basis while climbing a grade or at top speed but it could also occur for very brief moments during acceleration (at the top RPM before shifting).
  • holstein13 wrote:

    Therefore, if you have any room for acceleration, that means you are not producing your maximum horse power. Mathematically, you will only achieve your maximum horsepower at maximum torque times maximum RPM and that almost always happens in top gear (unless you are climbing a mountain)

    Another way to think about this, is that you will only achieve your maximum horsepower when you are burning fuel the quickest.


    You can produce max hp and accelerate.

    Max hp does NOT have to be max tq times max rpm... Like I showed you earlier my max torque is 610, my max rpm is 2900. Using your max torque time max rpms I would end up with 336.8hp but it only makes 325.

    The math can go both ways, hp and tq are nearly always rated at different rpms. That's how my max hp is only making 588 ft/lbs even thou it's at my peak rpms before defuel.

    Torque/5252*rpms = hp.

    So mathematically your statement is incorrect, hp and tq are mathematically related but the peaks occur at different rpms on nearly every engine.

    It also RARELY ever happens in top gear, simply based on top speed vs speed limits, tire limits, speed limiters, etc... Diesels are one of the few vehicles that can hit rated rpm in top gear on a highway and not be doing unsafe speeds. My truck tops out at 102 with the current tires before it begins to defuel.

    You can do this in lower gears by putting your foot on the floor, it's the most common way to achieve max hp. You might only make that peak hp for a small time as the rpms go thru the rated rpms or a shift occurs. But I bet there is only a small percentage of owners that have ever hit peak hp in top gear, but anyone who has ever held their foot on the floor thru redline has made their engines peak hp. Gears have nothing to do with it (torque management aside), it's about rpms and fuel.

    You don't have to load an engine to the point of ceasing acceleration to make peak power.
  • ah64id wrote:
    It's hard to compare the efficiency of gas vs diesel because diesel fuel has more BTU's.

    holstein13 wrote:
    Meaning, you only get that maximum horsepower in top gear at top speed and depending on how your vehicle is geared, you may never be able to achieve that top gear at maximum RPM because your vehicle is too heavy or has too much wind resistance or has some other friction


    Why do you have to be in top gear to make peak hp? In factory form my motor made peak hp at 2900 rpms, I could hit those rpms in any gear and be wide open making full power. Now in lower gears there will be some torque management, but that goes away at approx 35 mph.



    Good point and this is a bit confusing. You could theoretically achieve your peak horsepower in any gear (especially while climbing a mountain). But most of the time, we are driving on a level surface and if you hold steady your maximum RPMs constant, your torque will decrease because you don't need the power.

    Therefore, if you have any room for acceleration, that means you are not producing your maximum horse power. Mathematically, you will only achieve your maximum horsepower at maximum torque times maximum RPM and that almost always happens in top gear (unless you are climbing a mountain)

    Another way to think about this, is that you will only achieve your maximum horsepower when you are burning fuel the quickest.
  • It's hard to compare the efficiency of gas vs diesel because diesel fuel has more BTU's.

    I have always found this to be the easiest way to explain it. Torque is how much work you can do, and hp is how fast you can do it. 400 hp and 400 ft/lbs can do the same work as 200 hp and 400 ft/lbs, but it will do it faster. That's why they are both important. My MY truck had a 325hp diesel or 375hp gasser. The diesel was better at towing because it has more torque and can get the load moving, but once a load was moving the gasser would be able to keep it moving the same or better (assuming running at rated rpm).

    holstein13 wrote:
    The horsepower rating that you always see quoted by everyone is the horsepower at the maximum torque and RPM.


    That's not true. Horsepower and Torque are reported at "x" rpm, and is the peak for each if the rpms are different, as they are in nearly all motors (can't think of any where hp/tq peaks are at the same rpm.

    My motor OEM spec's where 325hp @ 2900 and 610 ft/lbs @ 1600.

    Doing the math that's 185hp @ 1600 and 588 ft/lbs @ 2900, neither of those are my engine's peak ratings.

    Quoted hp is just that, the highest hp obtained on the dyno. It's a combination of rpm and torque.

    holstein13 wrote:
    Meaning, you only get that maximum horsepower in top gear at top speed and depending on how your vehicle is geared, you may never be able to achieve that top gear at maximum RPM because your vehicle is too heavy or has too much wind resistance or has some other friction


    Why do you have to be in top gear to make peak hp? In factory form my motor made peak hp at 2900 rpms, I could hit those rpms in any gear and be wide open making full power. Now in lower gears there will be some torque management, but that goes away at approx 35 mph.

    Unless the vehicle has some safety programming there is no reason you cannot hit rated rpms at full fueling in gears below OD.

    Often times peak hp is not needed in lower gears because the gearing reduction increases the engine power to a point where acceleration occurs or the fuel is reduced to maintain speed. But I can tell you that when you put your foot on the floor from a stop you are making full power as the engine goes thru the gears or you manually shift (not talking torque management which is on most modern vehicles).

    I have done dyno pulls in 5th and 6th gear, peak hp is the same.
  • E&J push'n wind wrote:
    So.., would you say torque = efficiency? Or could it be said efficiency is a product of higher torque?

    Torque and efficiency aren't related in any way. An engine produces two things, power and heat. Basically, a more efficient engine will produce more power and less heat given a certain quantity of fuel.
  • So.., would you say torque = efficiency? Or could it be said efficiency is a product of higher torque?

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