Towing wreck - overloaded hitch

Please keep in mind that the sticker has the ratings for a certain size/type of tire and stock springs.
Many of us throw the P rated tires from our half ton pickups away and replace them with LT Load Range C, D, or even E tires. Some of us also install "overload" springs of one kind or another.
The ratings on the sticker are no longer valid, because the truck is not equipped as shown.
Therefore, the REGISTERED GVW limitation applies.

Also that sticker works both ways. If your sticker says you have a 3700 lbs payload and your frame bends or cracks from the strain of your 2500 lbs king pin then you would definitely would use that against the manufacturer.

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

proxim2020 wrote:

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

I could go into court and say "he was almost over the legal limit and that is why he wrecked" and it would have as much weight as being over weight on the door sticker.

That didn't make any sense. What legal limit are you talking about?

Some people on here think the door sticker is a legal limit. It's not. It's just a recommendation from the manufacture and a guide line for warrantee purposes only. If the manufacture catches you towing a 35 foot 10,000 TT with your 1978 Toyota Hilux and you blow the clutch out of it Toyota is going to say, too bad, you went over the door sticker, no warrantee for you.

If the po-po catches you over the weight of your door sticker there is not one thing they can do about it as long as you up to that weight on your tag and are not over the axel ratings of the truck.

The bottom line of the bottom line is this:

Cross the line in my state and kill someone while towing a 15,000 lb trailer with your 1/2 ton pickup and you're going to do a big boys time out.

BUT at the same time

Tow a pop up with a Peterbuilt and cross over that same line in my state and kill someone you're also going to the big boys time out.

Why? Because they don't need to prove anything about weight as some would have you believe. They have a law called manslaughter and they will use it.

In fact, that happened in my county not too long ago. A cop crossed the line while on a call and hit a car head on and killed a young woman. He gets to go in front of a man with black robes and 12 of his peers soon. The charge? Manslaughter. The DA is going to say that the cop was going too fast for the conditions. Pretty easy case to prove in my mind. Why? He crossed the center line and killed someone so he obviously was going too fast for the conditions and his driving ability.

In my post I mentioned that you can't be prosecuted for exceeding the limit so I think we're thinking along the same lines there. However, the sticker is more than just a recommendation; it's a certification. The sticker shows what weights the manufacturer has determined can be carried or pulled safely based off the design of the vehicle. Once you've exceeded the designed limitations of a vehicle then you've pretty much reached the level of negligence.

In your case of the 1/2 ton carrying 15,000 lbs, depending on how far the ratings were exceeded, the user might reach the level of gross negligence and definitely would face some charges. In the case of the cop, once again this would be negligence. Although he was responding to a call, he still has to do so safely. Yes he has the benefit of lights and sirens, but that doesn’t mean he could 90 mph down wet switchbacks or fly through red lights without at least checking for oncoming traffic. If a tower crane operator was operating well under weight limits, but didn't account for high winds and the crane collapsed then that could be considered negligence as well. In all these situations if there wasn't a disregard for safety or absent-mindedness then there's a good chance that none of these catastrophes would have happened. That’s why people in these situations get charged with crimes.

Crossing the center line doesn’t automatically equate to negligence. Let’s say there's a truck that's rated to carry 9,000 lbs. The driver is hauling a trailer that is 8,975 lbs and within all rated limits. The vehicle has been maintained and inspected by the manufacturer according to specs. The truck snaps an axle and crosses the center line and kills someone. This is not negligence (at least on the part of the operator). Why? The manufacturer has already certified the vehicle to carry that amount of weight and the operator has a reasonable expectation that the vehicle will perform within those specs the manufacturer gave. Now that's not to say that the operator is totally absolved of all responsibility, however the operator wouldn't face any criminal charges. Not every accident ends up with someone getting a citation.

Lawyer people - I’m no lawyer, went to no law school, and haven’t passed any bar exam so if I said anything wrong then feel free to correct me.

Ask if the licensing process for higher than GVWR has an 'R' in their
documentation for the 'new' weight paid for?

This was all new to me...that someone could pay a fee to have the
state register their vehicle for whatever weight they wish to pay for

This is an 'allowed' weight and guessing they also have rules that they
filter before issuing that registration.

'R' as in *RATING* is not the same as 'allowed', or 'licensed'. That is
where the misconception is, IMHO

Would you go to the state DMV for warranty if your vehicle broke
using the state DMV licensing weight? Would the OEM of your vehicle
warrantee your vehicle using the state DMV registration licensing
weight?

The state DMV registration fee is payment for their road costs (heavier
does more damage, therefore higher fees) and to protect their roads
and structures.

A 'RATING' is something the OEM says their product will, as a min,
perform to. That is their 'contract' to you, the buyer/owner

A 'FEE' is payment for the right to use their roads and structures...within
the bounds they have (as most always say...maximum PSI of the tire to
pavement contact)

Like a circuit breaker might be RATED for 30 amps and those who
try to draw 33 amps is over the OEM's RATING. Would that OEM warranty
a circuit breaker that goes south because someone drew 33 amps? or
as folks here think...'should' they?

The door label is not the only place that vehicles RATINGS are listed
It is the most visible and convenient. The VIN will lead to that data.
Ditto anything else for that 'specific' vehicle. The glove box manual
is generic. Ditto the shop manual and that will point to the vehicle
spec labeling



Again, this one is public because a DA has filed criminal charges.
Most that folks here say never happened is because they were NOT
criminal, but civil where one can pay off the other....that requires
a NDA that forbids public disclosure...else lose the money and be
subject to a suit for breach of contract (NDA)

proxim2020 wrote:

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

I could go into court and say "he was almost over the legal limit and that is why he wrecked" and it would have as much weight as being over weight on the door sticker.

That didn't make any sense. What legal limit are you talking about?

Some people on here think the door sticker is a legal limit. It's not. It's just a recommendation from the manufacture and a guide line for warrantee purposes only. If the manufacture catches you towing a 35 foot 10,000 TT with your 1978 Toyota Hilux and you blow the clutch out of it Toyota is going to say, too bad, you went over the door sticker, no warrantee for you.

If the po-po catches you over the weight of your door sticker there is not one thing they can do about it as long as you up to that weight on your tag and are not over the axel ratings of the truck.

The bottom line of the bottom line is this:

Cross the line in my state and kill someone while towing a 15,000 lb trailer with your 1/2 ton pickup and you're going to do a big boys time out.

BUT at the same time

Tow a pop up with a Peterbuilt and cross over that same line in my state and kill someone you're also going to the big boys time out.

Why? Because they don't need to prove anything about weight as some would have you believe. They have a law called manslaughter and they will use it.

In fact, that happened in my county not too long ago. A cop crossed the line while on a call and hit a car head on and killed a young woman. He gets to go in front of a man with black robes and 12 of his peers soon. The charge? Manslaughter. The DA is going to say that the cop was going too fast for the conditions. Pretty easy case to prove in my mind. Why? He crossed the center line and killed someone so he obviously was going too fast for the conditions and his driving ability.

First) Hitch failed
(Second) Safety Chains failed or were not used
(Third) Emergency Brake was not present

While all three are Operator Issues, two of the three are a direct result of not caring or knowing better and only the first (Hitch Load) could be questioned as to if the operator even knew what it was

Yeah the forums weight cops are trying to turn the incident into their usual tow vehicle overweight same ol' same ol' tiresome baseless blather when it was actually the trailer/hitch/breakaway/safety chains/etc.
Hell even if the trailer wasn't overweight it was still a rolling accident waiting to happen.

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

I could go into court and say "he was almost over the legal limit and that is why he wrecked" and it would have as much weight as being over weight on the door sticker.

That didn't make any sense. What legal limit are you talking about?

Both you and TXiceman are making subtle, but IMO "EXTREMELY IMPORTANT" points and that being there are two parts in the end of being "legal" in the eyes of the law and that is the administrative end such as having a vehicle properly registered and the other IMO more important one is "Proper Operation". The later again IMO is where one can get into legal trouble when one is say loading a vehicle in excess of what the Manufacturer has specified the max weight it is designed for and what the FMVSS has certified that vehicle safety wise to be operated at. You might not get a ticket for improper registration, but could get nailed for Negligence or the host of more serious charges like "vehicular manslaughter" should it be determined that you were operating your vehicle outside the specified Manufacturer's or FMVSS certification ratings.

Everyone wants to point to the fact that there are no particular laws that reference such things as these Manufacturer's or FMVSS ratings, but what is important is that they are extremely germane IMO as a contributing factor in supporting other much more serious charges such as "IMPROPER OPERATION OF A MOTOR VEHICLE", "VEHICULAR MANSLAUGHTER", "RECKLESS DRIVING", "NEGLIGENCE IN XXXX", ETC., ETC. These Manufacturer and FMVSS numbers pretain to the "SAFE OPERATION" aspect of motor vehicle use and not the DMV/Registration "PROPER PAPERWORK (I.E. registration)" admistrative aspect of motor vehicle use.

Larry

Oaklevel wrote:
The biggest problem that I can see with this accident is the trailer was not hitched properly...... Nothing failed but the operators lack of knowledge.

Also keep in mind this would be looked at harder as commercial/ business (not necessarily CDL type) it as it belonged to a restaurant.

(First) Hitch failed
(Second) Safety Chains failed or were not used
(Third) Emergency Brake was not present

While all three are Operator Issues, two of the three are a direct result of not caring or knowing better and only the first (Hitch Load) could be questioned as to if the operator even knew what it was

mowermech wrote:

TXiceman wrote:

Turtle n Peeps wrote:
Manufactures ratings (door sticker) has no legal ramifications. It is strictly for warrantee.

And did you get this from an attorney or is it your opinion?

Ken

I can only relate personal experience!
My Carry-On light utility trailer is rated by the manufacturer at, IIRC, 2900 lbs (brakes are not legally required). GVWR. I think the State licensed it for 4000 GVW.
My old Dodge CTD 3500 was licensed by the State for 14K GVW. I don't remember what Dodge said the GVWR was.
My Dodge 1500 is licensed by the state for 8000 GVW.
The flatbed car hauler I used to have was rated by the manufacturer at 7000 GVWR, but the State registered it at 8K GVW.
I have no idea what kind of ratings are used where YOU live, but here the REGISTERED GVW is the only number that is legally important!

The fact remains, at any given time there are literally thousands of vehicles on the roads around the world that are TECHNICALLY overloaded, but LEGALLY under the REGISTERED GVW, and, as I often say, "Nothing bent, nothing broke, nobody was injured or died!"
Over the past 10 years, I have heard of two trailer breakaways involving a fatality. BOTH of them were related to improper hitching AND improper safety chains AND improper braking (as in NO breakaway system as required by law!)

???? I have talked to troopers about Lisc. Tags mainly going too light but still applies..... The troopers comment was you need to know the law & what is required for your vehicle. Do not rely on DMV as they will sell you just about anything & that does not make it legal.

Bad news today just heard about an older couple driving home to Indiana from the Martinsville Race were killed when their Motorhome hit a tree along the interstate in TN.