What is wrong with this industry?

Carriage Corporation was doing great for 32 years while Clarence Yoder, the founder, owned it. Clarence finally wanted to retire and sold Carriage Corp. Glenn Cushman (an investment banker from Phoenix ruined Carriage with his hair brained ideas and management morans he'd hired and the bank finally called in the $5 million loan and that is why Carriage is no longer in business. Had nothing to do with the original Carriage operation as they had plenty of sales, an excellent reputation, the fulltimers choice of RV units, the RVIA no. 1 gold winner for so many uears on end, and was very profitable. Glenn Cushman ruined it!

The same Carriage 5th wheel RV units Clarence marketed are now being built by Lifestyle and by many of the original employees also of Carriage Corp as they'd hired them to make the Carriage RV units at Lifestyle. The Carriage name (Registered) was sold at the auction and is being used again but the RV units are NOT the same as was made at Carriage Corp.

What's all this jibberish about paying $100,000 or $200,000 for a decent quality built RV unit. Several good manufacturers make decent quality RV's for a just fraction of that price. Jayco, for example, (the worlds largest non-corporate owned RV manufacturer) is one with their Eagle line or Premier line etc that can be purchased for around half of that $100,000. True 4 season units and are fulltime warranteed for 2 years not one year like most are. But like most manufacturers, Jayco also make much cheaper lines of RV's also like the light weights and entry level units. Other manufacturer also!

tracer999 wrote:

Cloud Dancer wrote:
I would've gladly paid extra for higher-quality construction, in the few IMPORTANT areas in my motorhome that I found way too substandard. The way I figure, it would've cost no more than $8,000 additionally. Which would've brought the price (I paid) up to $178,000. Heck yeah worth it! It would've made it great,....AND I would then gladly recommend the brand.
THAT'S what's wrong with the industry! The same thing as 15 years ago.

Sometimes these threads leave the world where reality controls.

The motor home side of the RV industry, which I will use as the example, is highly competitive from a product and price standpoint, and faces the same challenges that all businesses face. Indeed, the motor home industry is more difficult than most from a cost/quality standpoint because of the very complex and expensive nature of the materials and labor required.

The goal is a competent, safe vehicle, often 40 feet or longer, with good performance; and a residence that is attractive and comfortable with the latest features. The consumer wants high horsepower, commercial grade diesel engines; heavy-duty Allison transmissions; and two or three axles with air suspension and disc brakes. High capacity, reliable generators are mandatory. Inside the house, we want high quality cabinetry, even very labor intensive precision-fitting European flush-style in the very high end; multiple large flat screen TVs with satellite TV systems; powerful heating and air conditioning systems; queen or even king beds; and perhaps even a fireplace. We have two complicated electrical systems, one AC and one DC, with complex controls that must also be user friendly. Due to relatively small production volumes, a great deal of the fabrication and assembly is done by hand.

We want solid surface counter tops; an economical laminate won't do. If not leather, we want top-of-the-line vinyl that looks and feels like leather. Tile or high-quality synthetic or re-engineered wood flooring is a must.

These days we insist on four slide-out rooms, the proper functioning of which, with multiple sensors, switches, hydraulic or electric actuators, and weather-tight seals, is a huge engineering (and later maintenance) challenge, but to the point, adding to the labor and material costs.

But we set a budget based not on the product we want but on what we want to spend.

One comment in this thread was that the difference in prices between units should be driven by the the materials, but the labor should not vary because it should all be to a high standard and the same cost. But the reality is that there are motor homes at the lower end of the price spectrum like the Winnebago gas units that are assembled in perhaps 300 labor hours or less. At the upper end, diesel pushers in the bus class or bus conversions, like a Newell or a Marathon, require more than 5,000 hours of labor, even 10,000 if highly customized.

The suggestion that a consumer would pay an extra $8000 for high-quality construction? Figuring $100 an hour, including factory overhead and a margin (the bricks and mortar are not free), that would buy 80 hours of extra labor to do the job to a high quality standard. Two extra guys for a week. The difference in the product would be hard to notice. And the ultimate purchaser will probably tell the dealer, "I'll give you $100,000 and my trade-in, not a penny more. I can buy a Brand X down the street for that. So sharpen your pencil." So where is the extra $8000? A product will bring a certain price in the market, and costs must be controlled within that reality.

Finally, the RV industry is, bottom line, a low-margin industry. Winnebago, a comparatively highly efficient operation, is earning slightly less than 5% net profit on sales. Their total profit for their last year was about $44M on about 10,000 units. Add $8000 in cost totals about $80M. If the extra labor is largely not noticable, a price increase will not stick, and their numbers are now well into the red. It doesn't get more complicated than that.

We can drink Two Buck Chuck (Three Buck now?), or we can drink a $20 cabernet. Or a $75 "reserve." We are free to drink the Chuck and complain about the quality. The choice is ours.

Tracer,
Did you miss where I said,...in the few IMPORTANT areas in my motorhome that I found way too substandard.....?
If I told you exactly where the substandard construction was, and had explained how it could've been remedied, and if had told you that everywhere else, through out, the quality was satisfactory, PERHAPS you would've understood what I'm talking about.
It takes too long to write a complete report,....and what good will it do? I'll just say that it was disappointing to find out that I got "water for chocolate" in those specific areas. AND, IMO I paid for chocolate. OK, so it was my fault. That's what NEWMAR told me, when they rejected my warranty claim (within the 3 year bumper-to-bumper warranty timeframe). Let the buyer beware, I get it. Lesson learned, and I will never do it again, nor will I forget.

Precisely. But would you buy a coach seat on an Internet broker for the least expensive airline and then complain about the legroom and food?

There's nothing wrong with inexpensive as long as the value is fair.

Ductape wrote:
I Agree with Nutz on this one. Buyers have the marketplace they are willing to pay for. Low prices everyday, anyone?

Proof is in the pudding..Try and sell a lightly used 4 year old quality RV with lots of expensive upgrades next to a new entry level rig that is selling for about the same price. The entry level unit will sell every time. It will have a bigger TV, brighter colors, 15-20 year financing, flashy exterior stripes and so on. Most buyers don't look for quality or don't know how to. Then the bellyache because it falls apart. I think this is why there are so many junk units built. They sell!

B.O.

I Agree with Nutz on this one. Buyers have the marketplace they are willing to pay for. Low prices everyday, anyone?

travelnutz wrote:
All most of you posters are really saying is:

You cause your own dismay and problems by buying the entry low cost RV's. Self-inflicted results! Avoid buying these cheaply designed and built RV units is how you control and reflect your demands on the RV industry. The junk builders will quickly go out of business as their sales plummet.

Just who do you think has the control of where RV buying dollars go to?

Save a buck now and endure years of miserable ownership is what the buying public has forced on most of the RV industry and hearing them complain is so laughable. Might want to wise up!


Cloud Dancer, our GM Duramax;

Our ordered and paid cash new Duramax GM optioned as we wanted is not far from 200k on it now and has never had any repairs done or needed since the day it was built (new) other than a couple light bulbs and new front brake pads at a little over 125K. Rears are still original. Last set of LT 265 "E" Michelins lasted over 93,000 miles and still had over 3mm or 1/8" of tread depth left. Always were inflated to 80 psi front and rear. Truck's only been used to pull our 5th wheels or when we had a TT also or carry our 11'4" heavy Lance truck camper usually with our 2150 lb boat behind. Never used as a daily driver as we have other vehicles for that.

Doesn't have a speck of rust anywhere and has never been garaged and we have always live in Michigan where salted roads are the norm in winter and we often winter RV/camp. Looks new inside and out and shiny no flawed paint or scratches. Drives and handles just like when first delivered in 2004 and pulls our 12,840 scale weighed 5th wheel excellent on all road types. Gets hand calculated 12.8 to 14.4 MGP pulling the 12,840 lb Carriage Carrilite 5th wheel at our always constant 58-60 mph on cruise.

Never going to sell it as WHY? even if or when we get another new GM truck so we don't have to make the change overs which are harder at almost 74 years old and not about to get easier in the future. Fantastic truck always! GM Duramax a very wise excellent choice? You bet!

So what happened to Carriage? They did build quality units but they are no longer around?
Where consumers unwilling to pay more for a better built unit?

All most of you posters are really saying is:

You cause your own dismay and problems by buying the entry low cost RV's. Self-inflicted results! Avoid buying these cheaply designed and built RV units is how you control and reflect your demands on the RV industry. The junk builders will quickly go out of business as their sales plummet.

Just who do you think has the control of where RV buying dollars go to?

Save a buck now and endure years of miserable ownership is what the buying public has forced on most of the RV industry and hearing them complain is so laughable. Might want to wise up!


Cloud Dancer, our GM Duramax;

Our ordered and paid cash new Duramax GM optioned as we wanted is not far from 200k on it now and has never had any repairs done or needed since the day it was built (new) other than a couple light bulbs and new front brake pads at a little over 125K. Rears are still original. Last set of LT 265 "E" Michelins lasted over 93,000 miles and still had over 3mm or 1/8" of tread depth left. Always were inflated to 80 psi front and rear. Truck's only been used to pull our 5th wheels or when we had a TT also or carry our 11'4" heavy Lance truck camper usually with our 2150 lb boat behind. Never used as a daily driver as we have other vehicles for that.

Doesn't have a speck of rust anywhere and has never been garaged and we have always live in Michigan where salted roads are the norm in winter and we often winter RV/camp. Looks new inside and out and shiny no flawed paint or scratches. Drives and handles just like when first delivered in 2004 and pulls our 12,840 scale weighed 5th wheel excellent on all road types. Gets hand calculated 12.8 to 14.4 MGP pulling the 12,840 lb Carriage Carrilite 5th wheel at our always constant 58-60 mph on cruise.

Never going to sell it as WHY? even if or when we get another new GM truck so we don't have to make the change overs which are harder at almost 74 years old and not about to get easier in the future. Fantastic truck always! GM Duramax a very wise excellent choice? You bet!

It's pretty much been proven pay don't move people to do better work. You are paid what you are worth. If you don't make enough money you will move to a better paying job. If you can't get a better job you are probably where you belong but begrudge people who can improve their financials.

Shouldn't a person take pride in their work no matter what they do or what they get paid? Those qualities say something about the person. Just because you make it union and the pay goes up doesn't mean the quality of the product increases.

It's a mindset established by a culture and some countries have it and some don't.

Cloud Dancer wrote:
I would've gladly paid extra for higher-quality construction, in the few IMPORTANT areas in my motorhome that I found way too substandard. The way I figure, it would've cost no more than $8,000 additionally. Which would've brought the price (I paid) up to $178,000. Heck yeah worth it! It would've made it great,....AND I would then gladly recommend the brand.
THAT'S what's wrong with the industry! The same thing as 15 years ago.

Sometimes these threads leave the world where reality controls.

The motor home side of the RV industry, which I will use as the example, is highly competitive from a product and price standpoint, and faces the same challenges that all businesses face. Indeed, the motor home industry is more difficult than most from a cost/quality standpoint because of the very complex and expensive nature of the materials and labor required.

The goal is a competent, safe vehicle, often 40 feet or longer, with good performance; and a residence that is attractive and comfortable with the latest features. The consumer wants high horsepower, commercial grade diesel engines; heavy-duty Allison transmissions; and two or three axles with air suspension and disc brakes. High capacity, reliable generators are mandatory. Inside the house, we want high quality cabinetry, even very labor intensive precision-fitting European flush-style in the very high end; multiple large flat screen TVs with satellite TV systems; powerful heating and air conditioning systems; queen or even king beds; and perhaps even a fireplace. We have two complicated electrical systems, one AC and one DC, with complex controls that must also be user friendly. Due to relatively small production volumes, a great deal of the fabrication and assembly is done by hand.

We want solid surface counter tops; an economical laminate won't do. If not leather, we want top-of-the-line vinyl that looks and feels like leather. Tile or high-quality synthetic or re-engineered wood flooring is a must.

These days we insist on four slide-out rooms, the proper functioning of which, with multiple sensors, switches, hydraulic or electric actuators, and weather-tight seals, is a huge engineering (and later maintenance) challenge, but to the point, adding to the labor and material costs.

But we set a budget based not on the product we want but on what we want to spend.

One comment in this thread was that the difference in prices between units should be driven by the the materials, but the labor should not vary because it should all be to a high standard and the same cost. But the reality is that there are motor homes at the lower end of the price spectrum like the Winnebago gas units that are assembled in perhaps 300 labor hours or less. At the upper end, diesel pushers in the bus class or bus conversions, like a Newell or a Marathon, require more than 5,000 hours of labor, even 10,000 if highly customized.

The suggestion that a consumer would pay an extra $8000 for high-quality construction? Figuring $100 an hour, including factory overhead and a margin (the bricks and mortar are not free), that would buy 80 hours of extra labor to do the job to a high quality standard. Two extra guys for a week. The difference in the product would be hard to notice. And the ultimate purchaser will probably tell the dealer, "I'll give you $100,000 and my trade-in, not a penny more. I can buy a Brand X down the street for that. So sharpen your pencil." So where is the extra $8000? A product will bring a certain price in the market, and costs must be controlled within that reality.

Finally, the RV industry is, bottom line, a low-margin industry. Winnebago, a comparatively highly efficient operation, is earning slightly less than 5% net profit on sales. Their total profit for their last year was about $44M on about 10,000 units. Add $8000 in cost totals about $80M. If the extra labor is largely not noticable, a price increase will not stick, and their numbers are now well into the red. It doesn't get more complicated than that.

We can drink Two Buck Chuck (Three Buck now?), or we can drink a $20 cabernet. Or a $75 "reserve." We are free to drink the Chuck and complain about the quality. The choice is ours.