PA12DRVR wrote:soren wrote:PA12DRVR wrote:
This topic is laden with a bunch of horsefeathers.
...but don't assert that binding arbitration is "breaking the law" or "giving up your rights".....by signing that sales agreement, the purchase AGREED to binding arbitration. If the purchaser didn't read the fine print, how is that characterized as "giving up your rights"?
All of that being said, when I was active in the game, we always recommended that commercial contracts use mediation followed by litigation as the dispute resolution mechanism. Arbitration is a bit of the worst of both worlds: lacking many of the procedural protections and settled law aspects of litigation while having expense and time costs far in excess of informal dispute resolution.
LOL. You can't even agree with yourself. Yes, binding arbitration is giving up your right to due process, and you are well aware of that fact. As evidenced by your final paragraph. Given strong lemon law protection in my state, I have little interest is the unlikely event of dealing with arbitration during a vehicle purchase, but there are many other, more significant transactions, where I simply isn't something I would be willing to expose myself to. It's a fraudulent set up that protects the guilty, and prevents meaningful reform when used to protect corporations from deliberately and repeatedly harming the public.
I'll stack my legal knowledge against yours any day. In an arms-length commercial transaction, neither party is being deprived of life, liberty, or property (i.e. such deprivations require due process) as the parties are bargaining for an exchange. If that arms-length commercial transaction BECOMES A DISPUTE then certain due process of law provisions kick in regarding the resolution of that DISPUTE, but , the first thing the adjudicator will look at is the agreement between the parties. If that agreement nominates binding arbitration, then the parties have selected binding arbitration as part of the bargained-for-exchange and there has been no unwilling deprivation.
Bull! This is not a case of "parties have selected" anything. It's a take or leave it proposal. Either purchase under the terms that benefit the seller, or else.
"Giving up your right to due process" for binding arbitration is no more "giving up" than you "give up" your money when you buy a car. It's a bargained-for exchange. The fact that it is not a dispute resolution mechanism that I would recommend to two parties with equal bargaining power doesn't mean that the binding arbitration provisions of a car sales contract THAT THE PURCHASER AGREES TO are fraudulent or illegal or in need of reform.
More bull! I have to admit, you are talented when it comes to shoveling the sheet, but that all you have. The two parties DO NOT Have equal bargaining power. One is a multi-billion dollar concern that has twisted the law, and created an alternative to due process that assures them of favorable outcomes. As for your ridiculous claim that you do not feel that situation is "in need of reform" Please, how pathetic is that?
If a purchaser is unwilling to read the sales agreement, they should bear the consequences thereof. If the state of the transaction has "strong lemon law" provisions, those provisions will have an impact on the dispute and will place obligations on both parties (although more on the dealership) and such obligations cannot be set aside nor waived by either an arbitrator nor a judge. A contract cannot set aside the law and a close examination of most sales contracts will lead to the savings clause which provides for any provisions not in compliance with the law to be rendered moot while leaving the rest of the contract in force.
Want to eliminate binding arbitration? Petition the legislative body of the city or state that you are a resident of to make such provisions illegal or petition for stronger laws against contracts that appear like contracts of adhesion.
Yea, good luck with that, LOL. Follow the money trail and see how we ended up with arbitrators that are full bought and paid for and legislation that assures that you have almost no rights when protecting yourself from the dishonest and harmful behavior of our mega-corporations.
Don't like binding arbitration as a result of buying a car? Buy a car from a private party.
CavemanCharlie wrote:1968mooney wrote:down home wrote:
I had them cross it out and sign it. It is nasty piece of legislation, un American and illegal the way I read our Constitution. In the first case to a judge a nurse, in Alabama, fired because she wouldn't sign the clause, was told he agreed to the clause by just working there and had no standing to sue.
Simply put the Mandatory binding Arbitration eliminates Citizens right to eek redress, in the Courts. It says you can elect to got to Court but if either side decides they want arbitration instead, then you are bound to it. They have a list of arbitrators, Lawyers even Law clerks, you choose from, if they let you. These Arbitrators almost always side with the Companies. If they decide against a company they are removed from the list.
This was one part of the Visa Credit Card private Legislation. The other letting Banking and Lenders set up their own capricious and illegal Credit Bureaus and rating system. Don't have any debt you can't buy anything. Don't keep enough debt revolving, and your credit score is so low that you may not be able to buy anything, including your first home. Son paid for everything, had two savings accounts, two 401Ks and Roth, and money,in the bank. Couldn't buy a home. had to pay for a secured credit card he didn't want and buy and pay on it and was charged for the card in addition to the deposit amount and so on.
Talk about leaving a soured taste in your mouth. gone are the days when you walked into the bank and got a signature loan, for 90 days and maybe extended it for a year for a small amount to buy a car etc. Regulations by Fed, and virtually all Banks and Credit unions are Fed now.
Not much saving going on. They don't want to pay to use your money. They get money printed for them by our Treasury and charge it/us for it.They want us to borrow money from them or use plastic. They make money on every transaction with plastic and increase the cost of all goods and services by that much.
Sounds as if you need to move further "south". You hate our banks and economy so much, Mexico would be great for you. :S
I got to agree with Down Home on this one. Most of what he said anyway, maybe not all.
I am one that saves up money for things first and only buys what I can afford.
I bet my credit score is just horrible.
The only way to get it higher is to borrow a lot of money for things I don't need and can't afford.
Problem is; if I ever lost the job I have now it can be though to find another job with a bad credit score. And, the same way with renting a home or apartment. To rent you must have a good credit score. The only way to get a good score it to go into debt.
There is something wrong with this.
Had a friend some years ago that after graduating from high school borrowed money for everything. Things like clothes. After a few years he lost his job and declared bankruptcy. I said "why? " he said it was because he had to much credit card debt. So, in other words my tax dollars paid to bail him out because of his poor spending habits.
Within year he had credit card again and started the process all over.
He has declared bankruptcy like 3 times.
1968mooney wrote:down home wrote:
I had them cross it out and sign it. It is nasty piece of legislation, un American and illegal the way I read our Constitution. In the first case to a judge a nurse, in Alabama, fired because she wouldn't sign the clause, was told he agreed to the clause by just working there and had no standing to sue.
Simply put the Mandatory binding Arbitration eliminates Citizens right to eek redress, in the Courts. It says you can elect to got to Court but if either side decides they want arbitration instead, then you are bound to it. They have a list of arbitrators, Lawyers even Law clerks, you choose from, if they let you. These Arbitrators almost always side with the Companies. If they decide against a company they are removed from the list.
This was one part of the Visa Credit Card private Legislation. The other letting Banking and Lenders set up their own capricious and illegal Credit Bureaus and rating system. Don't have any debt you can't buy anything. Don't keep enough debt revolving, and your credit score is so low that you may not be able to buy anything, including your first home. Son paid for everything, had two savings accounts, two 401Ks and Roth, and money,in the bank. Couldn't buy a home. had to pay for a secured credit card he didn't want and buy and pay on it and was charged for the card in addition to the deposit amount and so on.
Talk about leaving a soured taste in your mouth. gone are the days when you walked into the bank and got a signature loan, for 90 days and maybe extended it for a year for a small amount to buy a car etc. Regulations by Fed, and virtually all Banks and Credit unions are Fed now.
Not much saving going on. They don't want to pay to use your money. They get money printed for them by our Treasury and charge it/us for it.They want us to borrow money from them or use plastic. They make money on every transaction with plastic and increase the cost of all goods and services by that much.
Sounds as if you need to move further "south". You hate our banks and economy so much, Mexico would be great for you. :S
Tvov wrote:WyoTraveler wrote:
If it was a clause in the contract and you agreed on everything else just draw a line through it, ask them to initial and date. You initial and date. If they say no just get up and walk. If they are so dishonest they won't scratch the clause the right thing to do is walk.
Have you ever actually done this? I have read about doing this, but have never done it myself or heard of anyone actually doing it.
WyoTraveler wrote:
If it was a clause in the contract and you agreed on everything else just draw a line through it, ask them to initial and date. You initial and date. If they say no just get up and walk. If they are so dishonest they won't scratch the clause the right thing to do is walk.
down home wrote:
I had them cross it out and sign it. It is nasty piece of legislation, un American and illegal the way I read our Constitution. In the first case to a judge a nurse, in Alabama, fired because she wouldn't sign the clause, was told he agreed to the clause by just working there and had no standing to sue.
Simply put the Mandatory binding Arbitration eliminates Citizens right to eek redress, in the Courts. It says you can elect to got to Court but if either side decides they want arbitration instead, then you are bound to it. They have a list of arbitrators, Lawyers even Law clerks, you choose from, if they let you. These Arbitrators almost always side with the Companies. If they decide against a company they are removed from the list.
This was one part of the Visa Credit Card private Legislation. The other letting Banking and Lenders set up their own capricious and illegal Credit Bureaus and rating system. Don't have any debt you can't buy anything. Don't keep enough debt revolving, and your credit score is so low that you may not be able to buy anything, including your first home. Son paid for everything, had two savings accounts, two 401Ks and Roth, and money,in the bank. Couldn't buy a home. had to pay for a secured credit card he didn't want and buy and pay on it and was charged for the card in addition to the deposit amount and so on.
Talk about leaving a soured taste in your mouth. gone are the days when you walked into the bank and got a signature loan, for 90 days and maybe extended it for a year for a small amount to buy a car etc. Regulations by Fed, and virtually all Banks and Credit unions are Fed now.
Not much saving going on. They don't want to pay to use your money. They get money printed for them by our Treasury and charge it/us for it.They want us to borrow money from them or use plastic. They make money on every transaction with plastic and increase the cost of all goods and services by that much.
