400 mile electric RV

3 tons wrote:

BTW, two years ago we took a cruse ship through Prince William Sound (recall Exxon Valdez spill…) , whereby the Cruse Director stated that the sound had returned to it’s original condition…I was kinda doubtful, but with otters, whales and dolphins in the waters, I could see no signs of residual oil anywhere or on any shoreline, in fact the entire area looked absolutely pristine - thankfully, this is nature’s way…

A 10 million gallon oil spill is not a good example of how oil is harmless. 30 years later and everything looks normal on the surface, but you don't have to dig too deep to find lingering effects from the spill. 19 of the 24 species have largely recovered, but the others still haven't fully recovered:

The AT1 pod of locally distinct killer whales has yet to recover, and likely never will. The day of the spill, members of the pod were photographed swimming in oiled waters near the ruptured tanker. As detailed by Alaskan author and marine biologist Eva Saulitis, who studied the killer whales of Prince William Sound for many years, the oiled animals’ subsequent disappearance, possibly along with other factors, permanently undercut the survival of the pod. Today, the small pod drifts toward extinction.

Impacts reach land, too. Prior to the spill, the rugged Naked Island archipelago in the central part of Prince William Sound was critical breeding habitat for pigeon guillemots and other seabirds, which nest in bluffs above the water where they forage for fish. The islands took a direct hit from the spill and guillemot populations never recovered. Recently, biologists took the dramatic step of killing mink on the islands, hoping that removal of the egg-eating predators might restore the birds.

Now go visit Orange County beaches and let everyone know that they can rest assured that in a few decades, they'll hardly see a sign of the oil.

The Keystone pipeline shutdown was simply to appeal politically to the incoherent greenies, in exchange for increased political power ($$)…America is using the same amount of energy with this artificially created deficit coming from overseas sources, along with a loss of well paying jobs, and paying a surcharge at the pump and across the entire economy to do so… So please explain to the ‘unenlightened’ how ‘political meddling’ in the energy infrastructure produces less (P.C. boogyman) Carbon, and how this is the cogent way forward….

BTW, two years ago we took a cruse ship through Prince William Sound (recall Exxon Valdez spill…) , whereby the Cruse Director stated that the sound had returned to it’s original condition…I was kinda doubtful, but with otters, whales and dolphins in the waters, I could see no signs of residual oil anywhere or on any shoreline, in fact the entire area looked absolutely pristine - thankfully, this is nature’s way…

3 tons

Several points.

That Volvo report is a very extensive "life cycle" study of "carbon parity". I would love to see one from ALL other BEV manufacturers belly up and provide carbon parity data.

Since GHG in USA is on the decline and BEVs compose less than 6% of automobiles on the road, hard to make a relationship between the two.

And we have the ugly environmental issue of Thacker Pass with open mining for lithium, and claims by Indian Tribes.

RENO, Nev. — Tribal lawyers are asking a U.S. judge in Nevada to reconsider her earlier refusal to block digging at a proposed lithium mine near the Oregon line where they say newly uncovered evidence proves it was the sacred site of a massacre of dozens of Native Americans in 1865.

The new motion filed in federal court in Reno includes an 1865 newspaper report and two eyewitness accounts of how at least 31 Paiute men, women and children were “murdered by federal soldiers” at Thacker Pass.

The accounts were in an autobiography first published in 1929 by a well-known American labor organizer, Bill Haywood. One was from a cavalry volunteer who participated in the slaughter and the other by a tribal member who survived it.

Nevada Lithium Corp.’s construction is scheduled to begin earlier next year at what would be the largest lithium mine in the nation and the biggest open pit lithium mine in the world.

Lithium is a key component in electric vehicle batteries. Demand for the mineral is expected to triple over the next five years.

The only significant lithium mine now operating in the U.S. is in Nevada. Another planned halfway between Reno and Las Vegas by Ioneer Ltd. also faces legal challenges from environmentalists fighting to protect a rare desert wildflower that the Fish and Wildlife Service formally proposed last week to be listed as an endangered species. ....

https://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/2021/10/tribes-new-evidence-proves-massacre-was-at-lithium-mine-site-near-oregon-nevada-border.html

If Indian Tribal Rights, environment damage and endangered species were reasons to shut down the Keystone Pipeline...then why are the same folks ignoring identical concerns for Thacker Pass?

"...Do you think in all things
the majority is right?
That men with individuality
should never fight?
Can you hate a man
that shouts a freedom cry?
Well then, Mr, you're a better man than I..."

Song performed by the Yardbirds...circa 1965, a time before many of you were even born.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgRZzVsCusw

More heat, less rain, pollution weaken the trees. Then the beetles come. Then many wilderness trees are dead. Then between a few lightning strikes and probably a few arsonists and careless people the fires come. Some is natural. Has escalated due to changing environment including pollution. Many other parts of the world are having similar issues. Not just a CA issue at all. Plenty of unmanaged natural forests too.

Going to get worse before it gets better. Everyone can start by installing one watt of solar for every square foot of home living space. Too many do nothing, fight everything, delay action of other people. The same people expect the government to provide a solution and at the same time want less government. Can't get there from here.

“Ask a park ranger in RMNP about the effects of air pollution drifting in from SF & LA.”

Agreed, but the primary source of his angst comes not from vehicles but from Calif forest mis-management - we’ve suffered more than 5 years of this dreaded policy malfeasance in my Nevada neighborhood, with Calif ash even coming into our house, yet this goes totally unabated, in fact Calif doesn’t even count the CO2 resulting from their wildfires… “Stupid is as Stupid does” comes to mind…

“The sooner the oil wells in CA are decommissioned the better”…

Lots of emotion here (a NIMBY syndrome??), but then who’ll provide the fuel for our RV tow vehicles, and for those who accept without any personal examination whatsoever that CO2 is a ‘pollutant’ - regardless the source, how do we replace oil with a 24/7 steady, reliable energy supply without going nuclear??

“Today is Clean Air Day in CA” …

Huh??…I only wish Calif would declare a Clean Air Reparations Day for the weeks and even months others elsewhere are in a virtual lockdown over devastating AQI !! Even the sky's in our friends region in Delaware had turned brown!!…(Yet, not a single solitary word from the greenies - lol).

As unfortunate and ugly as it is, oil and natural gas seeping up from the ocean floor is a worldwide centuries old phenomenon, yet nature has it’s ways and means of digesting such…

The ugly truth is that there’s no free lunch, no one gets a pass…We all bear some degree of personal responsibility, mainly because of the first world lifestyles we partake in and enjoy, yet outsourcing energy production offshore causes far more pollution…So on the one hand one might ask of themselves “what am I willing to give up”, but much of this paradox can be properly mitigated were there to be a coherent, multi-facited, non-politicized energy policy (but environmental fear sells), the best initial investment might be modernization of the grid..

3 tons

3 tons wrote:

free radical wrote:

3 tons wrote:

...
Understand that almost any modern new ICE automobile is very nearly an actual zero pollution vehicle with only some occasional minor exceptions (like transiting up-hill on-ramps), and there’s no solid evidence whatsoever that BEV’s achieve a lower net footprint…Thus (regarding a multitude of current issues) we must acknowledge our captivity in this now ‘Post-Truth’ era…JMHO

3 tons

No offence but thats the most idiotic load of nonsense ever.

Lock yourself in garage w ICE engine runnin,
Ill do the same w EV,will see whos more poluting.

“Idiotic” how so??

Your argument ‘pretends’ that EV’s are not responsible for the carbon created to electrify them…That notion seems a bit idiotic to me…
3 tons

Ask a park ranger in RMNP about the effects of air pollution drifting in from SF & LA.

Declaring gasoline as non polluting still leaves a lot lingering in the air that has an effect on health of both people and the environment.

The sooner the oil wells off the CA coast are decommissioned the better. The latest oil spill is terrible here. Gulf coast is long since a near continuous disaster with many wells leaking unabated for years.

Today is Clean Air day in CA. Everyone is encouraged to walk, bike or use public transit. Or rather don't use the gasoline vehicle. It does make a difference.

free radical wrote:

3 tons wrote:

...
Understand that almost any modern new ICE automobile is very nearly an actual zero pollution vehicle with only some occasional minor exceptions (like transiting up-hill on-ramps), and there’s no solid evidence whatsoever that BEV’s achieve a lower net footprint…Thus (regarding a multitude of current issues) we must acknowledge our captivity in this now ‘Post-Truth’ era…JMHO

3 tons

No offence but thats the most idiotic load of nonsense ever.

Lock yourself in garage w ICE engine runnin,
Ill do the same w EV,will see whos more poluting.

“Idiotic” how so??

Your argument ‘pretends’ that EV’s are not responsible for the carbon created to electrify them…That notion seems a bit idiotic to me…
3 tons

Greta Thunberg sums it up here:

Greta Thunberg comments on climate action

This argument is like having multiple recycle curbside bins while the rest of the town is hurling trash out the back window.

It is absurdly easy for an automobile to exceed HC CO & NOX limits by 500%
And Mexico has what thirty million automobiles and an inability to rationalize EVs outside of the largest cities.

Mexico's GASOLINE Magna, has 4.5 times the USA permitted level of sulfur.

And in the summer much of it blows north.

To cure anything one must address and fix all facets of a problem.
Starting with easing the 500 container ships swirling around offshore (they aren't anchored) burning bunkers of 600 PPM diesel 24/7

I say OK, what yardstick should I use to measure the degree I am saving the planet? Elites tell us it is all about the reduction of the planet's GHG Emissions.

What yardstick do you use to justify keeping your ICE? You can keep using that yardstick - no one is going to come to your house and take your ICE car.

I say OK, to compare the many BEVs in the marketplace, what is the breakeven/carbon parity (in miles) for said BEVs? And all I hear is the sound of Jiminy Crickets.

You posted one study from Volvo, which was based on the relatively inefficient BEV XC40 (79 MPGe vs 140 MPGe for the Tesla Model 3).Here's what Tesla's report says:

The manufacturing process of a Model 3 currently results in slightly higher GHG emissions than an equivalent combustion engine vehicle. However, based on the global weighted average grid mix, a Model 3 has lower lifetime emissions than an equivalent ICE after driving 5,340 miles

If reducing GHG Emissions is NOT the goal (selecting a BEV that reaches carbon parity the soonest), then what is? Hmmmm....could it be all about money (power)?

How about operating cost? Emissions (even if you don't care about CO2, there are other emissions like Nitrous Oxide and particulates)?

But for as little as your wife drives, she should drive her S430 into the ground, before shopping around for a new car.

Government Subsidy games remind me of the old Robin Hood philosophy (redistribution of wealth). Except, the diminishment of wealth falls on those who can not afford to buy BEVs.

Subsidies only apply to manufacturers that are new to EV's, the most popular (Tesla and GM) have already sold so many EV's that they are no longer subisdized, and they are still cost effective and popular cars.