Battery Life and Low Temps

jandjbaums wrote:

pianotuna wrote:
Hi Rmack1,

Red Hill Marina Campground

Rmack1 wrote:

There are none in CA, that's for sure

When I was growing up, my folks had a moblehome across the lake(sea) from there. We'd go their on w/ends and vacys. What a hellhole it was, 122 in the shade, humid as all get out. But you found a place in Cali. Good for snowbirds in the winter though.That was 44 yrs ago.

Yeah, it can get hot in Smellsomore (the lake's unofficial name during the massive fish die-offs that can happen). That's why we got into RV'ing. I've spent much more time away from there this summer than home.

I'm still gone. Because it's going to be in the high nineties all week in Elsinore, I've decided to stay for at least another week here at French Camp at the base of Rock Creek road up by Mammoth Lakes. Too much of a chance of getting snowed in much further up the mountain.

PNICHOLS wrote:

"... run the genset every time you need power": Is close to "run a small generator every so often for SEVERAL hours to replenish a battery bank".

But how is the above really different than "... run a large generator every so often for a FEW hours to replenish a battery bank".

Well .... I guess the difference is the small generator would be run at a low sound level for it's several hours as opposed to the large generator being run at a high sound level for it's few hours.” (end)

JRNYMN7 wrote:

“But this isn't about getting free stuff (although that's nice), it's about charging efficiency. The simple fact is, the higher voltage, higher amp charger does the job in 1/3 the time, and at 41% of the cost in fuel... even when coupled with the larger gen engine. And btw, the eu2000i is lighter and just as quiet.

And yes, one could start comparing the ex650 with some huge, highly inefficient gennie, but that would be totally irrelevant. But just try using a $50.00 higher voltage, higher amp charger with that same (free) ex650 and watch your charge times and related costs drop significantly.

…you don't need a quiet "AT FULL" generator, just one that can handle more than a measly 4a load.” (end)

… Round and round we go…You are (again) comparing a small, low powered quiet generator with a large , high powered, noisy one. But there is a better alternative to both. The eu2000i, for example, has the small imprint, light weight, quiet operation of a suitcase genset, but the power of a much larger genset. It’s overall rated fuel consumption is close to that of the 650, but has the capability of powering much larger loads, more efficiently, and thus capable of decreasing overall costs of charging, especially when in eco mode, a feature nowhere to be found on the 650.

And no, the ex650 will not even come close to powering the average 30a charger at 14.4v, (which should not be considered fast, high voltage charging, btw) along with the other amenities in the rv. So now you would have to buy one of the much more expensive power factor compensated units; so yet another added expense due to an undersized genset. Yes, one can MAKE the 650 useful, but at what cost?

It’s really no different than my not being able to put a queen size bed in my less than 90 sq. ft rv. The rv simply does not accommodate such a large bed. Likewise the ex650 does not accommodate even a reasonably sized, inexpensive charger.

As for running the genset for say 10 hours a day, for all your electrical needs:

Yes, at one gallon / $3.50 per day, it sounds reasonably cheap, and extended over an entire 6 month season that’s $637. Not too shabby. But, keep in mind, you still need solar for the refer, in that case, which is hit and miss, and solar doesn’t work at night, so you would still need either batteries and a charging system, or you would have to run the gennie all hours of the night, which would require you to get out of bed and refill the tank.

But what is the expected lifespan of an ex650, run for 10-15 hours a day, for 6 months at a time? And are these things readily available at a very low cost? I'm guessing, no.

(come to think of it, this could make for an interesting thread of its own… comparing gen living with battery living)

I'm going to the neutral corner on this one...

I departed Michoacan temps 95/84

For Baja California temps 108/90 but 10% less humid. Some days got 1o 115.

I dreamed of the Sierras. Lake and stream water so cold it hurts your teeth. The bite of morning air wrapping one's fingers around a coffee cup to warm them the end of July.

On the other side I could load the family into the car and go to Patzcuaro. Here there is relief in a hotel on the other side of the border. At sixty dollars a night. When I checked in yesterday halfway through the trip north this hotel was at 98F and they had a fan stored in closet.

At home the Kubota is `150' away I don't hear it, but I THINK about it when it is running.

People are different. One man's paradise is another man's Hell. I always try and see things from all points of view. I doubt few of you could endure the temps I live with every day. The cars A/C quit last year and I do not have 4oo dollars to fix it.

Such is life. I have doubts I have a leg up on anyone. I try to satisfy me without impacting anyone else's life. Sometimes doing even that is a handful.

No, I was thinking about being high in the Sierras trying to absorb some beauty and quiet, and having to listen to and smell your generator, and my anger is only because of your annoying and smug and repetitive and condescending posts touting what works for you, and also which reminds me of why I do not like so many of the people who call California home.

But go ahead and tell us how great you are, and how great your system is and how quiet your generator is, and how lucky you are to have procured one and for such a little sum to boot!! Perhaps you can tell us all those other bonuses you can get than nobody else can.

Perhaps you should start your own thread and call it "why 13.8v is all anyone ever needs, cause it works for me."

Or perhaps "Sniff my generator, it was free!, and you cant get one, nyah nyah nyah."

landyacht318 wrote:
I don't care how quiet anybody thinks their generator is, If I have to listen to it all night long, I am going to go into hulk mode, pick up your stinking generator and throw it through your window.

Then ... you're never toured the Southeastern U.S. in July and August and tried to drycamp when the night temperature was 88 degrees and the humidity was 90 percent. An air conditioner MUST be used all night to sleep and a generator MUST be used all night to power the air conditioner.

We can do, and have done, this in our RV because it has the generators on board to deal with this and similar situations. Full hook up camping - even in hot and humid conditions - is no camping at all from our perspective. We even have drycamped in Death Valley out in the middle of nowhere away from the maddening crowds and their no-generators-at-any-cost thinking. ;)

jrnymn7,

Now .... you're finally beginning to understand.

"... run the genset every time you need power": Is close to "run a small generator every so often for several hours to replenish a battery bank".

But how is the above really different than "... run a large generator every so often for a few hours to replenish a battery bank".

Well .... I guess the difference is the small generator would be run at a low sound level for it's several hours as opposed to the large generator being run at a high sound level for it's few hours.

It depends upon campground rules for starters, but also on how you want to hear a generator if you must hear one - a short time and loud - or a long time and quiet.

I prefer long and quiet so I can get used to it. I never get used to short and loud.

..... or alternatively .... when the sun is shining, use it's long and low charging while hearing nothing ... or when the sun isn't shining, use a fuel cell's long and low charging while hearing nothing.

Of course for air conditioning, if you don't want to be restricted to high altitude forest camping (as we don't want to be restricted to after spending all that money for an RV), you have to have a large generator along anyway.

We bring along both a large (and relatively quiet) built-in generator and as you know, a small (and very quiet) portable generator ... so all bases are covered.

"With my equipment in Ray's situation, I would merely have gone to bed with a full tank of gas in the 550 watt genny and left it running powering our converter until it's 0.51 gallons of gas ran out in the middle of the night. While it was running, it would be doing two things ... charging the batteries up - plus powering the RV's furnace and everything else in the RV. In the morning the batteries would be at a higher SOC than they were in the evening when the generator was started because the heavy-draw furnace would not have been supplied from any battery power during a portion of the night. Doing this about every other night would have taken about 1 gallon of fuel from the little generator every two day"

Then why not just run the genset every time you need power, even 24/7 if need be, if that's the case, (seriously). 50 pounds of generator and 50 pounds of gas and you'd be good to go. Stick the refer on solar, during the day, and on the gennie at night.

I don't care how quiet anybody thinks their generator is, If I have to listen to it all night long, I am going to go into hulk mode, pick up your stinking generator and throw it through your window.

You better hope that assuages my anger or that you have a big gun and know how to use it.

PNICHOLS wrote:

"Apparently you see no value in comparing long-time/low-current charging versus short-time/high-current charging, as you're convinced that the short and high scenario is the only way to go." (end)

At what point were we comparing "long-time/low-current charging versus short-time/high-current charging"? That is another discussion, and one which I would be more than happy to be involved in. In fact, it's high time we all got to the bottom of that subject, by separating reality from dogma and propaganda. For instance, is there any hard evidence supporting low/slow charging being superior to high and fast? And what are the engineers and battery manufacturers discovering when it's all said and done. And should one obsess over prolonging battery lifespan, at any cost; be it fuel, engine wear and tear, pollution???

As for being, quote "convinced that the short and high scenario is the only way to go." Yes, I am... in the context of boondocking. I have seen no actual evidence that the low and slow method yields better results, but I have crunched the numbers, and know for a fact, that the savings to be had doing it the fast way, more than out way any menial savings to be had as far as earlier battery replacement is concerned. Many here have had their batteries last many years doing it the fast way, whereas others may brag about the longevity of their hardly used, teet suckled, 70 pound workshop shelf book ends. What we need is real world data... numbers, facts, related costs, that sort of thing.

"BTW, I think that solar charging is long-time/low-current charging."

It can be. But that's another topic for discussion. All I know is doing low/slow with a generator is a huge waste of resources. And again, at some point one still needs to do some high voltage, current regulated, charging to get the batts to true full... otherwise capacity decreases and one finds them self in the cold and dark. Case in point.

Please see my reply to RED, thanks.

Some comments - hopefully lower than rant level:

1) The last time I checked electrical theory, my 550 watt generator should be able to approximately power about any 30 amp charger or converter built with a reasonable power factor.

2) My converter is (and many in OEM outfitted RVs are also) 45 amps, and if anybody cared to read certain of my particular links, a curve provided by Parallax shows it capable of initially delivering this to a 50% SOC deep cycle 12V Group 27 battery. However, of course my 550 watt generator cannot power it up to the converter's maximum 45 amps output ... only up to around 35 amps from the converter's output..

3) The "more costly" long and slow approach over short and high argument was never proved to my satisfaction. Along with other subtleties, the heavier currents resulting from short and high charging into a battery does cause some heating within the battery, which inherently is wasting more power in heat alone than long and low charging.

4) I've tried this test many times - charge our 200AH of batteries with the 13.8 volts from our "low powered" (45 amp) converter until the ammeter finally reads zero amps. Then I start up the V10's 130 amp alternator and hit the batteries some more with 14.4 volts and guess what - the ammeter won't budge off zero. So ... were my batteries fully charged from their long enough exposure to only 13.8 volts or not? It looks like they were to me. I hold that other than for periodic "stirring of the electrolyte" or "equalizing of the potential between cells", any fixed voltage above a lead acid battery's natural rest potential will "eventually get it charged" because of physical current flow from high potential to low potential.

For Ray's (the OP) or any other one's cooler weather charging needs, yes indeed higher voltages than when in warm weather must be used to get the same charging currents. With my equipment in Ray's situation, I would merely have gone to bed with a full tank of gas in the 550 watt genny and left it running powering our converter until it's 0.51 gallons of gas ran out in the middle of the night. While it was running, it would be doing two things ... charging the batteries up - plus powering the RV's furnace and everything else in the RV. In the morning the batteries would be at a higher SOC than they were in the evening when the generator was started because the heavy-draw furnace would not have been supplied from any battery power during a portion of the night. Doing this about every other night would have taken about 1 gallon of fuel from the little generator every two days.

Not too expensive a way to enjoy the beautiful Mammoth Lake area, IMHO.