CFL bulbs

wa8yxm wrote:
Built in generators and inverters are almost always bonded. Most small portable generators are unbonded.

Good diagram but it seems to show BOTH chassis bond and ground and the implication that those two things are different.

Of course, when sitting on the tires alone, there will not be a true ground. And I assume it is strictly forbidden to ever have the generator connected to shore power......so there never will be a true ground unless you run a wire and drive a stake.

road-runner wrote:
The white wire is bonded to ground via the outlet that the shore cord plugs into.

It does not sense current in the ground wire for this feature, either.

I kind of figured the first part out on my own.
In effect, the entire coach looks just like a huge "appliance" to the power grid; the ground comes from the grid, not the "appliance".

And I was wrong about the functioning of a GFI. The main thing sensed is a difference in the current flow on the two supply wires and that really has nothing to do with "ground". It may also detect current flow on the ground wire but that's a plus and not really necessary.....I think. In a mobile coach application, it really is not a "ground fault" detector unless you are connected to shore power.

Thanks for all the answers.
I think I'll take a meter to mine and see for sure what is what when running on generator power.

Deleted post.

Gdetrailer wrote:

NinerBikes wrote:
A CFL has an anode, and a cathode and usually a starter choke ballast.

How they work

Porcelain lamp fixture for a lightbulb, be it CFL or argon gas and tungsten white hot heated element.

There is no green wire "ground" for the fixture, hence no ground for the light bulb.





End of debate. Also agreed, a Honda generator, or any other generator has no "Ground" or "earth" Connection, unless you want to pound a Ufer ground rod into the ground and tie it in to the ground wire, although it is perfectly unnecessary.

It is necessary when you are tied into the electrical grid, as the source of electricity, usually a huge generator, is then tied into ground also to provide a short circuit path.

That link has very outdated information concerning not only CFLs but most all MODERN DAY fluorescents.

Early CFLs did indeed use a iron core "ballast", I had a few of those..

Modern day CFLs actually use an ELECTRONIC "Ballast" which is a fancy term for switching power supply!

Simply put, modern day CFLS have a built in switching powersupply which is very simular to say your PC power supply but instead of 3, 5, 12V DC they have several HUNDRED VOLTS..

Modern day CFLs actually can be run on DC provided you have 50-70V DC!

Modern day fluorescent fixtures no longer use the old iron ballasts either, instead once again they now use switching power power supplies which deliver several hundred volts..

If you don't believe me, go to home depot and take a good look at replacement ballasts.. You will find only electronic versions due to efficiency regulations..

No need to believe or disbelieve, I'm a general contractor, you are correct, almost all ballasts now are electronic, the electrical code for energy efficiency is a royal PIA for me and clients nowadays, staying current and up with it.

I may be one of the few that have met SCVJeff in person and seen his rig and his work. One word... respect, with anything he does that involves electromagnetic energy, in all it's forms.

There's a fair amount of highly technical guys around here, read enough and you'll know who's EE rated and who still needs to be qualified. I don't have my EE, so I shut up if it's over my head.

wa8yxm wrote:
and the Onan in my RV (5500) is not bonded.. I checked.

What model do you have? All of the ones I have worked on are bonded- the wiring diagram for an HGJxx, though all of the others I have show the same.

road-runner wrote:
and yes I know that a GFI really detects a current flow in the third "ground" wire..

No, GFCI does not use 3rd wire at all it measures the vector sum of current in the other two wires.. The sum of the two currents should always be ZERO (Since it is vector added) Many GFCI units do not even have a provision for the 3rd wire. The GFCI plug on my wife's hair dryer for example has only two prongs. No 3rd wire at all.

Built in generators and inverters are almost always bonded. Most small portable generators are unbonded.

Actually there is no requirement for built in generators to be bonded at least up to a specific power level.. and the Onan in my RV (5500) is not bonded.. I checked.

You are right on portables though.

My invertr (prosine 2.0) bonding is optional.. I have the screw in the BONDED hole.

Vulcan Rider wrote:

road-runner wrote:
Anyone who doesn't know the answers to the above questions, as a previous post "politely" stated:

"You are out of your league here".

Hints: They are not tied together (which would be a NEC violation), and GFIs do not need a ground to work.

Sure be an ass; that really contributes positively to the discussion.

I readily admit little to no experience or knowledge with generator systems that are not a part of the power grid and am asking for information.

IF.....the white and ground wires are not connected together at a central distribution box, then where IS the "ground" wire connected ....and to what ??

And yes I know that a GFI really detects a current flow in the third "ground" wire.....where there should be none but for that to happen it has to be connected to something somewhere. Maybe it would more properly called a "neutral fault" detector. But then, how would it detect a fault in the "neutral" if there IS NO neutral in a balanced AC feed ??

I may not know everything about generator systems but I have a REALLY good grasp of the basics and my BS detector is still going off.

put your attitude and tour BS detector aside and read what people are trying to get across here. I just can't get any clearer than say it once more..
It is a LAMP. It has no hot, no ground, no neutral... It is pure AC. The fact that it has a "hot" side and a "neutral" side BEFORE the lamp makes ZERO difference to the lamp. 2 pages ago you said "check for loose grounds".. Who cares? Call it what you want: a resistive load, an inductive load, etc. in this case a CFL, which has FAR more electronics in it than your diode BTW.. IT, whatever IT is is being fed by 2 wires. There is NO ground, no Hot. Just unreferrenced volts.

Since you want to sling credentials around.. I design and build TV and Radio Studios and Sound stages, 50kw transmitters, microwave sites, Satellite and ENG trucks and helicopters for a living all over the US and Puerto Rico. Prior to this 35 year stint I spent 5 years at GTE in the training department showing the field guys how a telephone network runs. I'm pretty sure I understand how to feed a light bulb.

Maybe someone else can give this a try.

road-runner wrote:
SVCJeff, with the slinging of credentials in play, you can use some support: Any 2-wire device connected to AC doesn't care which supply wire is hooked to which input of the device, which one is grounded, or connected to anything else for that matter. There could be an exception if the voltage was in the multi-digit thousands, which is not the case here.

Thats all I'm trying to say here. And to Chris's point, my "balanced" terminology was actually borrowed from balanced audio circuits as they are the same with the obvious exception that balanced Line or Mic levels aren't 115VAC, but electrically they can be drawn the same.

IF.....the white and ground wires are not connected together at a central distribution box, then where IS the "ground" wire connected ....and to what ??

And yes I know that a GFI really detects a current flow in the third "ground" wire.....where there should be none but for that to happen it has to be connected to something somewhere.

The white wire is bonded to ground via the outlet that the shore cord plugs into. If connected to a generator or inverter, the bond may or may not be made depending on the specific inverter or generator. Some have a bonded output, others have a floating output. Built in generators and inverters are almost always bonded. Most small portable generators are unbonded. Some inverters have a bonded output, some have a floating output, and some will go up in smoke if you bond them. GFI's do not detect current flow in the ground wire. Here are 2 links:

http://home.howstuffworks.com/question117.htm
www.nfphampden.com/gfci.pdf

Neither of these articles mention the other GFI feature that detects a downstream bond of the neutral (technically the bonded conductor in a 30 amp RV) to ground. It does not sense current in the ground wire for this feature, either.

A little help. A "Y" transformer has FOUR connections. One on each of the three tips of the Y and the fourth connection is the spot where all the legs of the Y join together.

To prevent big problems with voltage the electric company pins that center of the Y connection to EARTH GROUND. But that transformer connection is not called ground. It is called NEUTRAL. The issue of how and where in the service drop neutral connects to the earth is important
All kinds of rules, regulations, and codes demand neutral and earth be bonded.

Small generators have no Y connection and therefore do not have a neutral. There is no need for a neutral.