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JRRoadRanger's avatar
JRRoadRanger
Explorer III
Feb 20, 2025
Solved

Dry tongue weight versus fully loaded

Hello,  I’m wondering if there is an estimated percentage increase in fully loaded tongue weight of a fifth wheel trailer when appropriately loaded to capacity, versus the factory listed dry tongue weight?  

for example, the trailer I’m looking at purchasing has a listed dry tongue, weight of 1930 pounds. The maximum trailer gross vehicle weight is 12,000 pounds. The trailers carrying capacity for cargo fluids, etc. is 3239 pounds. I’m trying to make sure the truck I would choose for fifth wheel can accommodate the fully loaded tongue weight.  Is there a way to estimate the increase in tongue weight when the trailer is fully loaded to get a reasonable approximation?

Some good technical input would be appreciated.

Thanks

 

  • 5th wheels generally run 20-25% on the pin. 

    There is little relation between the advertised "dry" pin weight and what you see in real life. Doubly so, once you load it up. "Dry" pin weights often seem artificially low compared to real life.

    If it has a 12k GVWR, I would plan on 3000lb pin weight (25%). So if buying a truck and wanting to stay within spec (some people will tell you to exceed spec), you are likely needing a truck with north of 4000-4500lb payload (don't forget passengers, hitch, other stuff in the truck bed, etc... count against payload)

  • You can guess, or you can actually measure. There seem to be two ways to do so, both of which will cost you a few bucks. You can hit the nearest CAT scales and do a little math or you can go to etrailer.com and buy a scale intended for the purpose. The latter are actually not very expensive.

    • JRRoadRanger's avatar
      JRRoadRanger
      Explorer III

      Thanks for the info.  I’ll buy a scale when I get the trailer, I do like to know where Im at.  

      Since I don’t yet have a trailer, and before having the ability to weigh a loaded trailer, and since I was also looking for the most comfortable ride considering my back issues… all these things together lead me to step up in size and suspension quality to a truck I never thought Id get, a GMC 3500 crew cab Denali. ( Big difference in ride between the Denali and mid range models)

      Its a wonderful truck , feels good with my back as long as I use my cushion and binder.  Going up,  also gives me options for a future larger trailer if we choose to do so some day.   (Also amazing how just adding 600 lbs to the bed and lowering the tire pressure smooths out the ride when not towing .)

      Thanks

      • Grit_dog's avatar
        Grit_dog
        Navigator

        Whatever makes you comfortable I suppose. But for the record buying the Denali is a placebo for “comfort” unless you’re only comparing seats. 
        I can guarantee you they have the same suspension as so called mid range models. And it’s just as easy to ballast the bed and drop tire pressure on any truck. 
        Not sure what you mean “buy a scale”. You’re talking over $1000 for Chinesuim Amazon scale on up in price. 
        ^This is laughable. Whadaya doo if you go thru all that and find a weight you “don’t like” even though you don’t know what that is yet?  Scrap it and buy a new camper?  
        If you’re weight paranoid it’s a connundrum. You won’t know exactly what you got until after you buy it (even though “exact” doesn’t matter real world) and once you do, then what? Hand wringing on down the road?  Make the wife unpack half her stuff? Buy a Dooley?  Get a lighter camper?

        Im being semi dramatic for effect to help you realize either your worrying about nothing or you just maybe should stick to 4 wheels if you can’t get over it. Being honest. 

  • You might consider calling a dealer that sells Northwoods and tell them you need a door that's 36" wide and see if they will measure the width of the doors for you. From the one video I looked at online the door does appear wider than most. But the cabinets and the steps look like they would be in the way of letting the chair in. 
     

    I agree a toy hauler ramp can be pretty steep. Also once inside the bathroom is usually pretty small. 

    • JRRoadRanger's avatar
      JRRoadRanger
      Explorer III

      Found out from Northwoods the door opening is actually 30 inches vs the 36 quoted by co-piolot.  Good thing is, thats wide enough for the chair, and our daughter is ambulatory for short distances so no problem navigating in the trailer.  

  • Thanks for that!  Not going to be a toy hauler however I did want to look into if the dealer or manufacturer could add some appropriately placed power wheelchair tiedown hooks so we could bring my daughters 450 pound fullly equipped, power chair and she could enjoy getting around with us.  

    • valhalla360's avatar
      valhalla360
      Navigator

      You might reconsider a toy hauler. If your daughter will be with you frequently, getting a large power wheelchair in and out of a standard 5th wheel could be challenging. I'm guessing on dimensions but I would be surprised if you can get the chair thru a standard RV door. With a toy hauler, you just drop the rear loading door and she drives right in.

      • JRRoadRanger's avatar
        JRRoadRanger
        Explorer III

        Thanks for this great input. I’ve been trying to find sources of information without a lot of success until now.  Regarding the door, we’re looking at one of the Northwoods 27 foot fifth wheels. The specs aren’t listed but copilot AI believes that the door is 36 inches wide by 84 tall and the deck height is 24 inches off the ground.  All of those specs would work just fine using the ramp. I have to get her chair through the door.  (if copilot knows what it’s talking about.)

        Regarding the choice of truck taking a little closer inspection I think I’m gonna need the 3500!  Problem comes in the payload, even with the max towing package. If my wife and I brought along two friends (that have much weight to them at all., a GMC 2500 hd with max towing would already be overweight without any other gear in the truck, even if using the 22% pin weight calculation.  This is surprising to me.  

        Regarding the toy haulers, I’m not sure what the ramp slope ratio is, typically 2 : 12 is recommended for safe use with wheelchairs.  I have been able to carry the chair in my tundra which has a slight lift on it with the bed about 32 inches off the ground using a 10 foot ramp which is a little bit on the steep side, but if the chair is empty, I can drive it up standing next to the chair successfully. Even at that the ground needs to be totally flat just a slight pitch throws the angles off and the chair can start sliding down the ramp when you drive it out of the bed.  Need to be real careful with these chairs to avoid 450 pounds crashing to the ground off the side of a wheelchair ramp.  The 24 inch deck height on the North woods trailer, as long as that door is big enough, would be no problem at all for my ramp.  

  • Thank you so much for that insight and some great guidelines. That tells me that if I get the 2500 HD truck I’m going to need to definitely get the max towing package to meet a 3000 pound tongue weight and a 4000 to 4500 pound payload.  Just the decision making information I’ve been looking for.   Was thinking I might like the ride a bit better if I didn’t get max towing package, however it looks like that’s the way to go!  

    Thank you so much! 

     

     

     

     

     

    • Grit_dog's avatar
      Grit_dog
      Navigator

      Your best bet is understanding trucks a little better. 
      That is when you’ll realize that every 3/4 or 1 ton srw has roughly the same real world available payload.  IE the first real world limitation is the tires/wheels. Because suspension is cheap and easy to add if you need it. 
      That limit is roughly 4klbs. And a 3/4 or 1 ton srw is effectively equipped the same in all other facets save for rear springs are generally stiffer than a 3/4 ton. 
      no a 3/4 ton won’t tried appreciably better unloaded. With these trucks tire pressure is your friend or enemy for empty driving comfort. Because none of them are plush. Ram is the softest. 
      The only real decision is srw or dually. Are you comfortable being at the upper end of your tire load ratings (without going to 19.5s) or do you want a Dooley?

      Regarding the door, those that say get a toyhauler for what I’d presume is very regular access with the wheelchair have obviously never dealt with a big cargo door day in day out. It’s possible but not convenient.  
      Then again neither is ripping apart a a new camper and having a substantial ramp. 
      imo wheelchair and trailer are relatively prohibitive of each other. I’d look for a mobility van. JMO. 

      • valhalla360's avatar
        valhalla360
        Navigator

        As noted, some will tell you to ignore the specs... there is some truth but it's gotten more complicated in recent years as 3/4 tons have gotten different suspension systems. In the old days it was often just the springs but not today.

        But if buying a new truck, just get one that is in spec...why go thru the hassle of overloading and then having to upgrade the suspension... when buying almost no difference to upgrade to a suitable truck. If you have the truck already, then it becomes a discussion if you can upgrade the truck.

        Opening the cargo door takes 30 sec when we had one. Only issue would be making sure you don't back up to a tree or drop-off. 

        I'm very much unclear how the OP is getting a 450lb chair in the side door.

  • 5th wheels generally run 20-25% on the pin. 

    There is little relation between the advertised "dry" pin weight and what you see in real life. Doubly so, once you load it up. "Dry" pin weights often seem artificially low compared to real life.

    If it has a 12k GVWR, I would plan on 3000lb pin weight (25%). So if buying a truck and wanting to stay within spec (some people will tell you to exceed spec), you are likely needing a truck with north of 4000-4500lb payload (don't forget passengers, hitch, other stuff in the truck bed, etc... count against payload)

  • The pin weight “dry” is 22% of the “dry” weight. Hence you can expect the pin weight to be 22% of the GVW when loaded; I.e.: 2650lbs +/-

    If it’s a toy hauler it may be about 20% when toys are in the back.

    • Grit_dog's avatar
      Grit_dog
      Navigator

      Maybe you guys could recognize that pin weights all aren’t the same % of tongue. You’re probably confusing the guy who has no clue because you make assumptions. Focus on the answer not some weird inaccurate metric. 

      • valhalla360's avatar
        valhalla360
        Navigator

        So what is the answer when we can't take his fully loaded new camper to a CAT scale to get real numbers before buying the truck and camper?

        If you can't get real world numbers best to assume a little on the conservative side, so you don't find yourself overloaded after you've spent a lot of money. Assuming 25% of the gvwr is a safe initial assumption. 

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